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JOY018 The Thaw (VOY S2 E23)

Published on: 13th February, 2024

The Thaw (Star Trek: Voyager, S2 E23) was recommended by Tonks Moriarty (they/them) , who said: Quite frankly, I love malevolent clowns, the idea something that is outwardly supposed to be joyous or happy is actually twisted and evil. This episode is so surreal, and strange, and weird and it isn't /afraid/ to be that. The Fear Clown establishes himself as a threat, and his interactions with Robert Picardo are fantastic. This also reinforces a very important character trait about Janeway, you don't f*** with her crew.

NoWay recommended The Thaw, saying:

"I honestly dont know how this episode was received and if it receive a lot of hate but for me its one of my favourites in voyager.

The idea of having a computer make a interpretation of the subconscious fears and manifest them into a character sounds believable to me and that this character realizes he has to keep his hosts alive/scared to keep himself from fading away is also something that seems to fit.

There are some scenes that are a bit weird though like "harry growing old and young"

I love the clowns interaction with the doctor as well , first time the doc interupts him "excuse me, your are not holding that properly" and the second time where the clown remarks the doc is good and bringing a party to a hold"

I also dont fully understand why janeway would program her hologram with a "haha got you" response after the people are free but it sort firs with janeway since he does like 'winning' "

The Thaw first aired on April 29, 1996, written by story by Richard Gadas, teleplay by Joe Menosky, and directed by Marvin V. Rush

The Joy of Trek is hosted by Khaki & Kay, with editing & production by Chief Engineer Greg and music by Fox Amoore (Bandcamp | Bluesky)

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Transcript
Kay:

Ahoy, fellow prisoners of the mind!

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Khaki: And welcome aboard the

Joy of Trek, a chilling podcast

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exploring the icy tendrils of the

mindscape and the sinister ballet of

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Kay: All of it!

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I'm Cocky.

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Khaki: I'm Kay,

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Greg: And in the grim recesses of

your mind, it's your chief engineer,

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Greg.

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Khaki: we're on a mission through the

nightmarish dreamscape of Star Trek to

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find the dominant fears in every sleeping

mind and the excellence in every episode.

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Kay: Even the creepy clowns!

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Khaki: Ooh, because every episode

must be someone's favorite,

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and it might as well be us.

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Kay: So ignite your, hmm, fear

encrusted lanterns, okay, and join us

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as we dance through the joy of Trek!

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Not entirely sure what I was thinking

yesterday, but I need to come back from

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a fun little evening when I decided

to do this prep and apparently fear

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encrusted lanterns were on my mind.

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Hello,

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Khaki: Well, I don't know how you

feel about clowns in general, so This

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is, must have been, and masks for

that matter, so it must have been

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a bit of an interesting episode.

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Kay: Oh, yes, because we are talking

about Voyager, Season 2, Episode 23 The

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Khaki: It was another Low

budget episode, wasn't it?

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Kay: Ooh, that's not

something that I saw per se.

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story by Richard

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Khaki: Mm hmm.

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Kay: uh, teleplayed by Joe

Manosky and directed by Martin V.

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Rush.

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Now, Marvin V.

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Rush had previously been, uh,

Oh, I want to say Director of

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Photography, I don't have it here.

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Chief, this is really early to call you

in, but Can you clarify what Marvin V.

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Rush had previously done on Star Trek?

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Greg: Absolutely cocky.

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Marvin V.

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Rush was a cinematographer

for next generation deep.

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Nine.

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Voyager the Borg experience for Las

Vegas as well as in star Trek enterprise.

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He was also a director for the host next

generation, favorite son, and the thought

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and Voyager and mirror darkly parked to.

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And terror prime for star Trek enterprise.

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Kay: so Rush had directed one episode

before and clearly wanted to do another

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one and he was really excited about this

one because the Thor, oh, let's do the

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synopsis because we don't do that enough

in, the Thor, Voyager encounters the

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last survivors of a planetary disaster

who have remained in suspended animation

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years after they should have been revived.

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They soon discover that the survivors

are trapped within a virtual world that's

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being controlled by an entity known

only as the Clown, who turns out to be

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the personification of fear, trapping

the survivors and whoever else enters

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his world for his personal amusement.

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sO there was actually quite a large set.

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Khaki: Right, yeah, it shows, yeah.

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Kay: oh, well, they actually thought

it was quite a small set, relatively

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speaking, considering how much they

wanted to do there, but so they

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moved stuff around and made sure that

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Khaki: the people back there Yeah,

I mean, it looks like fairly simple

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construction, you know, just brightly

coloured walls and everything, a couple

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of stages and a Barbie esque guillotine.

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Kay: Yeah, yeah apparently the

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Khaki: Would there be a guillotine?

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Kay: I think

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that's the French pronunciation and the

English pronunciation is with a hard

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L everybody who worked on

this had a lot to say about it

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Khaki: it.

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Uh

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Kay: well, the opinions were very divided,

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Khaki: Yeah.

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Kay: Like on the one hand in 2014, I09

ranked the Thor's clown as the sixth

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least threatening villain of Star Trek,

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But Screen Rant in 2021 ranked the Thor

as the eighth scariest episode of all Star

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Trek and the scariest of Voyager itself.

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So

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Khaki: guess it really

depends on how it hits you.

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Kay: yeah.

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Khaki: about this kind of you

know, mental entrapment and being

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held up by your own fears, I mean.

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Alright did anybody

suggest this episode to us?

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This is the first

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Kay: is the first episode that we have two

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Khaki: recommendations.

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Oh, fantastic.

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Kay: The first one is from Tonks Moriarty.

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Ooh they've all The form gives the

opportunity for people to talk about

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themselves, so they sort of read like

dating profiles, I've got to say.

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We've got Tonks Moriarty, they thash

them, a web developer from Leeds, the

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UK, involved in the local furry scene.

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Oh, and they say, thank you three

for the positive vibes and being

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a shining light in fandom spaces.

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Oh, thank you, Tonks!

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And they recommended the Thor, saying,

quite frankly, I love malevolent clowns.

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Ooh, Tonks.

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I don't know that we're going to

be, you know, we have as much in

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common as maybe I previously thought.

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tHe idea something that is outwardly

supposed to be joyous or happy

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is actually twisted and evil.

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This episode is so surreal and strange

and weird and it isn't afraid to be that.

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The fear clown establishes himself

as a threat and his interactions

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with Robert Picardo are fantastic.

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Yeah.

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This also reinforces a very important

character trait about Janeway.

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You don't with her crew.

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Khaki: and,

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Kay: And

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we have another recommendation from

No Way, a 36 year old NET developer

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from the Netherlands who likes long

walks on the beach and hot cocoa

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and, uh, not gonna extrapolate on

somebody else's dating profile, I

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just realized that that's not cool.

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whO starts off with, I honestly don't

know how this episode was received and

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if it received a lot of hate, but for

me, it's one of my favorites in Voyager.

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Oh, that's awesome.

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The idea of having a computer make an

interpretation of the subconscious fears

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and manifest them into a character sounds

believable to me, and that this character

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realizes he has to keep his host alive

slash scared to keep himself from fading

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away is also something that seems to fit.

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There are some scenes that

are a bit weird, though, like

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Harry growing old and young.

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Hedging?

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No way.

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That's not needed.

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I love the clown's interactions with

the Doctor as well, same as Tog's.

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First time the Doc interrupts him,

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And how about: Excuse me.

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You're not holding that

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properly.

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Kay: The second time is where

the clown remarks the Doc is good

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at bringing a party to a hold.

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And how about: I don't get out very much.

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Kay: I Also don't fully understand why

Janeway would program her hologram with

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a ha ha got you response after people

are free But it sort of fits with

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Janeway since she does like Winning.

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Yeah.

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Khaki: Well, and to that I would

say, like, it's not programmed.

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She's just, she literally says, I

programmed to react like Janeway.

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That's probably how Janeway would react.

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Kay: Yeah, we've seen her do it

and it's really, really valid.

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Greg: Chief engineer, Greg here.

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Just want to give a shout out

to tongues and no way for this

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because, oh, I love this upset.

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Avoiders so much, especially,

especially the ending suggest.

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Thank you for letting me enjoy

watching this episode again

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because oh, it's fantastic.

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Kay: Okay.

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So do you have any, do you have like,

I don't see you leaking any plasma,

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although you did tell me that you had your

first warp core dump written down when,

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thank you for remembering the buttons.

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Oh, shucks.

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His voice is a bomb to my soul.

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Khaki: Uh, it's not really a

Warpcore dump that I have, but it's

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Kay: it's just a little toot of plasma

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Khaki: the opening shot where you see

Tom Paris sitting in the background.

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In the foreground there's a, uh, stand

which is holding some sheet music.

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And it says, Impromptu Jazz.

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Kay: Yes, it says jazz

impromptu, which is apparently a

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Khaki: right, but it's a bit of a,

you know, contradiction in terminate,

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like, you know, to have a musical piece

called impromptu Jazz, which jazz impro

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especially is not about like writing

it down and playing it as it's written.

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Kay: Oh, it can be like

those, those competition.

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I know, I know what you're talking about.

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Right.

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Jazz was a, was a hugely complex, uh,

musical movement and, really encouraged

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improvisation and experimentation.

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I think like Thelonious Monk, who I've

heard described as a music scientist

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who was trying to figure out like,

what's the farthest you can get from

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expectation while still being music?

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okay,

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Right.

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What is music

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Khaki: I mean, I like that the association

of Dutch jazz players is called the

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Association of Improvising Musicians.

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Kay: Oh, very good.

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Khaki: Or at least loosely

translates as that, but um.

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Kay: Because we start with Harry

doing clarinet practice and it, it

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looks to me like Garrett Wong is

playing this instrument competently.

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I have no idea whether that's the case.

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I'm also intrigued by everything

else that he has, uh, in his room.

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He's got some weird things on the wall.

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Khaki: I completely

forgot that we have Gs.

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Kay: Oh, yes, yes, and they're, and

they're, oh my god, we're going to

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have some excellent Jeeves to use.

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Like, the clowns lines are

so good, and there's so many.

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Khaki: uh, there's a little

bit of banter going on.

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Someone's banging on the wall,

which is the, uh, Ensin next door.

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Kay: Yes, who apparently doesn't

appreciate Kim practicing and

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Khaki: And we get a confirmation that

there is such a thing as third shift.

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Kay: Because Tom, who is capital A,

capital T, also there, suggests, well,

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We could get Baytart transferred

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to the night shift.

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Couldn't do that.

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Could we?

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Khaki: we?

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Kay: Do you know this scene was

filmed for a different episode?

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Oh.

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It was filmed for Death Wish where it

was cut, I presume for time or tone.

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And it was just inserted

here because it's so generic.

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Because it's just them two

hanging out and them being

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called to the bridge by Chakotay.

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Which

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Khaki: Chakotay.

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Okay, I've got with

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Kay: with, uh, with Tom and Harry, What's

that thing on the table in front of Tom?

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Khaki: Tom?

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It's

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Kay: this sort of crystal metallic tower.

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Khaki: really come into focus very well.

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So it's very hard to tell.

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I think it's just probably

Kim's hookah or something.

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Kay: He's

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got his bong!

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Yes, of course!

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Oh wow!

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Why didn't I think of that?

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Yeah, of course!

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That's the bong.

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That they sort of scrounged

up their replicator rations

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Khaki: I was going to say, yeah, it's an,

it's an, it's an, it's an Antarian hookah.

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Kay: oh,

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yes, it turns out that Harry is

practicing because Susan Nicol and

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he had been working on something.

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Khaki: Yes, they were working on a,

like a program for the orchestral

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movements in the dark or something.

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Kay: Oh, nice.

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And Tom is deeply envious,

because, hey, I'm the

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Khaki: Yes, I've been trying to get

into her pants for the last six months.

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Kay: totally cool way to talk

about one of your colleagues.

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buT aside from being horrible yeah.

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He says, well, you know,

now that you mention it,

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l've always wanted to learn

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how to play the drums.

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. Kay: Drums is a perfect

instrument for Tom Paris.

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Khaki: I see, yeah, I can

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Kay: total drummer.

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He's got that vibe.

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Khaki: know that vibe?

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Oh, I don't know if he can keep

time, but that's, that's why

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I'd never make a great drummer.

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I'm rubbish at keeping time.

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Oh, okay.

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Kay: Yeah, some people are just Machines.

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Oh, I'm thinking of one

called, Sugarfoot Moffat, I

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Khaki: Ah, yes, uh, a

Michael Jackson's drummer.

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Uh huh.

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Yeah.

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Kay: I, I forget who,

who it was who said it.

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I think it was like legendary producer

Quincy Jones that said like, All

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drummers have sort of variations and

sort of like every drummer in the

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world has a kind of signature departure

from time, except for Sugarfoot.

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Yeah.

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Man's a machine.

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Khaki: Michael Jackson himself said,

Everybody mistakes, except for Sugarfoot.

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Kay: That's the one I'm thinking of.

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Thank you.

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So regular, like loads of

people think that it was a

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Khaki: Drum computer, yeah.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Nope.

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Kay: We're faced with a fairly generic

looking planet out on the bridge.

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Khaki: it's just like, Gas

giant dot JPEG or something.

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Yeah,

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Kay: Exactly.

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Nelix is on the bridge

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Captain, this used to be

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a major trading spot.

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How long ago?

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. Kay: And

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Khaki: doing his Nelix thing

where he waits like, Oh yes, I

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have this useful information.

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Waits for someone else to come up

with that and go like, Yeah, that's

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about what I was going to say.

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Kay: I'd say about 19 years.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Khaki: He doesn't get

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Kay: He doesn't get anything useful

to contribute this time around,

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which I think is a real shame.

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Ooh, I'm actually going to

dump a little warp core.

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Why

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this wasn't more about Neelix.

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I'm thinking about this right now.

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Neelix, of everyone on the crew, is

the one who deals the most with fear.

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Right?

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He's scrappy little junker out the galaxy.

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He's very mousy, he's very skittish.

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We see in his, you know, not

excellent relationship with

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Kess that jealous, envious.

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Like, he deals with that constantly.

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Sometimes successfully, sometimes not.

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he's an expert on the,

the analysis of fear.

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And maybe we should have had more of

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Khaki: I guess so one thing that I'm

going to, uh, say against that, no, wait,

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Kay: The other one, the other one.

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Khaki: one.

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Kay: Ah, shields up.

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Yes.

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We're getting better at these buttons.

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They are very far.

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Like we're sitting pretty far

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Khaki: that is,

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Kay: it's kind of a,

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Khaki: kind of have to reach

out and reach for them.

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So they wouldn't send him in first.

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And after they figured out that he

was aspect of fear, Jane may would

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definitely not have sent him in there

anymore, because at that point it

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becomes all about danger mitigation

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Kay: Yeah, no, that's absolutely

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Khaki: so

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Kay: but his, insights could have

been more valuable because they really

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Khaki: no, I agree

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Kay: uh, In this episode.

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So what they find out about this planet

is that it suffered an ecological

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catastrophe from which the 400, 000

settlers could not possibly have escaped.

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Khaki: No because there was a

sudden solar flare which caused

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immediate ice age and, yeah.

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Uh,

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Kay: but

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after 19 years, the

biosphere is recovering

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Khaki: Yes, it should have been

starting at 15 years, because they're

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being hailed from the surface.

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There's a, uh, message, uh, which

is basically a do not disturb sign,

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which has been put up on the door,

which is we've gone into hibernation.

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We're on our own timeline.

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Please do not interfere.

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And that's when you get the whole

discussion about like, oh, it's

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been 19 years and you can almost

practically see Janeway checking her

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watch going like, well, in that case,

we are going to interfere because

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clearly their plan hasn't worked.

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Kay: Because yeah, that message

was clearly intended to be, you

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know, triggered if anybody arrived

prematurely, although why they rejected

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the offers of help, I don't know.

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Khaki: Also, it was a trading post.

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So, you'd expect that quite a

lot of people came wandering by.

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Kay: I'm kind like, accept

this whole intro because

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Khaki: Yes, the premise, yes.

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We're getting

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Kay: the, the interesting part.

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None of that is the

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Khaki: Why are there only like, five

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Kay: are there only like five survivors

out of a population of 400, 000?

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And what were they going to do

to restore their settlement?

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It

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Khaki: Yeah, Kim makes a bit of a

rookie mistake, because he had been

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scanning the planet, but he'd only been

scanning the surface of the planet.

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And

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I think l've got something.

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2.3 kilometers down...

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Extremely faint bio-signatures.

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Three humanoids.

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Kay: Oh, yes.

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Yeah.

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I think that's fair to

call it a rookie mistake.

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I mean, he is.

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Khaki: maybe they were in an area

which was surrounded by a material that

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was 600 times more dense than lead.

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Kay: Yes, but as soon as he

starts looking for it, as soon

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Khaki: as soon as it occurs

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Kay: to him because yes, of course,

you have an ecological disaster.

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Moving underground is a, great way

to protect yourself from temperature

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variations and radiation and whatnot.

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Khaki: Or glaciers moving around, you

know, two kilometers down, you should

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be safe from most glacial movement.

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Kay: I like Jane Way's sort of concerns.

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'cause she doesn't want

to make anything worse.

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She wants to, to to get information.

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Yeah.

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And they settle on being able to beam up

the survival pods because the stasis pods

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Khaki: Yeah.

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Okay.

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One more.

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Okay.

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All right.

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So, they beam up these.

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Five pods, which are standing there

in a circle with a central computer,

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Kay: power source.

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no

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Khaki: external power, no

connections, not so wherever we are.

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We're just kind of like

beam the thing out.

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We're just like, got to like,

assume that it's not connected

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to anything, that it's completely

autonomous system that it's yeah.

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Kay: There also, this is Doctor Who rules.

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Khaki: Right.

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Yeah.

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Kay: And I think that that's something

Voyager never fully committed to.

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but

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it's such a, I think it's, like,

I rewatched the first episode of,

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or first season of Voyager a few

years ago, and it occurred to me

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just how wild these stories are.

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Almost like Golden Age of

Science Fiction, you know,

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Khaki: Right, yeah.

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Kay: You know really weird concepts,

people aging in reverse, stuff that's not,

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that's really not physically possible,

but who cares, what if we did it anyway?

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Yeah, And that's the sort of

Doctor Who ethos as well, you

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know, back in the day the,

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Khaki: behind that.

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Kay: Yeah, we can all see that

this is just a dude in bubble

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wrap that we painted green, but

we're calling him a swamp monster.

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And if you buy in that he's

a swamp monster, here's an

396

:

awesome story about a swamp

397

:

Khaki: monster.

398

:

Kay: exactly.

399

:

It's never really, really about that.

400

:

It was more like, Oh, what if, what if

hard sci fi was really easy to write?

401

:

Oh no, that's mean.

402

:

That's mean.

403

:

But so I kind of, yeah, okay, fine.

404

:

We have a lot to accept, but

we accept that because that's

405

:

not what's important about this

406

:

episode.

407

:

Khaki: that's not what the story, that's

not what the story is about, yeah.

408

:

Exactly.

409

:

The pods get beamed in, and Janeway

goes to check them out with Kes and Kim.

410

:

And the first person they see when

they wipe the dust off the pod

411

:

is the guy from the transmission.

412

:

Kay: Identifying himself as Veorsa,

and this guy is played by pardon me for

413

:

pronunciation if it's incorrect, Thomas

Kopachi who is one of a handful of

414

:

actors to appear on all four of the Rick

Berman era Star Trek TV spinoff series.

415

:

He's been a Romulan, he's been a

Vulcan, he's been a bunch of aliens.

416

:

I think he's right up there with like J.

417

:

G.

418

:

Hertzler and uh, Jeffrey Combs for having

played a whole bunch of different aliens.

419

:

The casting in this episode,

by the way, is bananas.

420

:

Because, oh, well, how about I'll

tell you about all these actors when

421

:

Khaki: to them.

422

:

Right, because I'm most

interested in the clown, because

423

:

he looks very familiar to me.

424

:

Kay: Okay,

425

:

Khaki: a moment there I thought he

was like the, he was like the Spaniard

426

:

from, uh, The Prince's Bride, but.

427

:

Kay: no.

428

:

that's, that's Mandy Patinkin.

429

:

Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya.

430

:

You killed my father.

431

:

Prepare to die?

432

:

Khaki: is the, like that, I don't

think the, the, the, the guy, uh.

433

:

The poison guy, he's

the, that's the Spaniard,

434

:

Kay: Oh, is he the, oh, oh,

oh, that's Wallace Shaw.

435

:

He's Grand Naga Zek.

436

:

Khaki: I know, but it's like, for a

moment I thought it was him, but it's not.

437

:

Kay: You keep saying that word Spaniard.

438

:

I do not think it means

439

:

Khaki: what you're saying.

440

:

So what is he

441

:

Kay: I don't remember.

442

:

Isn't it the Sicilian or

443

:

Khaki: Sicilian, that's it,

444

:

Kay: Yeah!

445

:

Got there in the end.

446

:

Khaki: Close enough, you know,

447

:

Kay: sure Chief Greg was sitting there

with his finger on the communicator

448

:

going He knows we can't hear him, but

it must be so frustrating out there

449

:

in the perilous mindscape of wherever

he's floating around this time.

450

:

I do hope he's

451

:

Khaki: Yes,

452

:

Kay: always worry about him when I

hear, like, where he is eventually.

453

:

Like, it doesn't seem like he's got a very

454

:

Khaki: does get around a lot

455

:

heard that

456

:

Kay: about you, Chief.

457

:

Speaking of you, I'd be

interested in his dating profile.

458

:

We love you, Chief.

459

:

Khaki: Thank you

460

:

Greg: You know, guys teasing someone

who has edit power over you and

461

:

can make you say all kinds of fun.

462

:

Things is an interesting choice.

463

:

I don't know if I would make that

choice myself, but you're more

464

:

than welcome to do it yourself.

465

:

Kay: Okay, that's Michael McKean.

466

:

Khaki: Right.

467

:

Kay: You know him as Davin St.

468

:

Ubbins.

469

:

The rhythm guitar player from Spinal Tap.

470

:

Khaki: Oh, wow.

471

:

I've only seen that movie once.

472

:

Kay: He's been a bunch of other things.

473

:

He's been in episodes of X Files.

474

:

You also know him from Better Call Saul.

475

:

He's the older brother with the

fear of electromagnetic radiation.

476

:

Khaki: Oh, right.

477

:

Him.

478

:

Yes.

479

:

Kay: And, uh, like, his credits

are too numerous to mention.

480

:

He's a fantastic comedic actor

and like many comedians, also

481

:

an incredible dramatic actor.

482

:

Khaki: knows how to

show off his dark side.

483

:

Kay: And, apparently a long time

acquaintance of Bob Picardo,

484

:

uh, who plays the Doctor.

485

:

Yeah.

486

:

So when they got to play

together, I mean, you see the,

487

:

the sort of electricity in those

488

:

Khaki: Yeah.

489

:

So, there's a bit of going on.

490

:

Kim discovers that like, oh,

they're actually still alive.

491

:

And they're interfacing with the computer.

492

:

And there's a little bit of theorizing.

493

:

Years ago,

494

:

Starfleet

495

:

used a technology

496

:

to assist deep space travel

497

:

that kept the body in stasis,

498

:

but provided a mental landscape

499

:

to keep the mind

500

:

active and alert.

501

:

Kay: like holodeck into computer.

502

:

The bio is

503

:

Khaki: a, there was a program that

shows the bio system situation

504

:

outside, and that should give them

the option to get out of there,

505

:

Kay: But then why

506

:

Khaki: but they seem to have rejected it.

507

:

Yes,

508

:

Kay: exactly.

509

:

Interestingly, actually, this is one that

I really want to ask the chief about.

510

:

Hello.

511

:

Janeway says that years ago, had a

technology that, that did that, that

512

:

provided mental stimulation to people

in long term, stasis for space travel.

513

:

I don't know that we know what that

514

:

Khaki: is.

515

:

Kay: Chief

516

:

Greg, what can you tell us about that?

517

:

Greg: I was wondering that

exact same thing myself.

518

:

Cause I was thinking, is this

a, just a throwaway line that

519

:

writers come up with as a

520

:

way

521

:

to be like, oh yeah, no, I've heard

something like this or is it like a

522

:

reference back to something as far as I

can tell, it's just a throwaway line about

523

:

like, oh, I've heard something about this

to make yourself seem knowledgeable and.

524

:

That whole trope.

525

:

I can't find anything more

specifically about that.

526

:

There's a lot of instances

of stasis happening.

527

:

Before Voyager and

528

:

the timeline, but nothing with this

mental landscape thing, unfortunately.

529

:

Kay: God, it's going to be a long wait.

530

:

It's going to be a long wait to find out.

531

:

I wonder if I should climb into a stasis

pod and then just ride out the next few

532

:

Khaki: it'd be an interesting

way to do it though, because like

533

:

usually the whole idea behind

stasis is that you are in stasis.

534

:

You're asleep.

535

:

You don't have Anything to do in this

case, they know that basically you're

536

:

going into the holodeck for 19 years.

537

:

Kay: Yeah, yeah.

538

:

Khaki: that's a great idea.

539

:

I mean, of course they might want to

have routine allows them to, uh, get

540

:

the environmental information that

might be a good reason to do it, but

541

:

it seems still seems like a, yeah.

542

:

Kay: We don't know what

stasis technology is

543

:

Khaki: and we don't, and we don't know

the psychology of these particular

544

:

aliens that might just be fine with them.

545

:

Oh yeah, that's a good point.

546

:

But yes, my first thought when

we had two dead and three alive

547

:

was, has there been murder most

548

:

Kay: Yeah, right.

549

:

Khaki: Like, has, has there been, are

they going to walk into a situation

550

:

where there's going to be, two of

those people have been murdered

551

:

by one or more of the other three.

552

:

And we have no idea what's going on.

553

:

So that was absolutely wrong.

554

:

Kay: Oh, that would

have been an interesting

555

:

Khaki: second, uh, idea was like, Oh,

it's going to be a 19 year old long

556

:

orgy, which has been going on in there.

557

:

And a few of them have

succumbed to the excitement.

558

:

Kay: That seems, wow, that

seems like a lot of work.

559

:

Nice work if you can, if

you're into it, I guess.

560

:

Well, it has been, it turns

out a 19 year orgy of fear,

561

:

Khaki: Yes.

562

:

Kay: there's one of several

conference meetings in the, uh,

563

:

Voyager observation lounge or

564

:

Khaki: conference Yeah.

565

:

Kay: with the, the weird craps table

that has the sort of slot down the

566

:

Khaki: middle Yeah.

567

:

Kay: I've never understood that table.

568

:

These chairs, I also think they're weird.

569

:

they have this real nineties.

570

:

clip art look to them with just

571

:

Khaki: Okay, yeah.

572

:

Fairly height backed and, uh

573

:

Kay: Oh, I'm just noticing

that the headrest is mobile.

574

:

Khaki: okay.

575

:

Kay: Balana has it on a different

position than the Neelix does.

576

:

Oh, that's actually quite clever.

577

:

And over on the monitor is the

578

:

Khaki: On the emergency

holographic channel.

579

:

Kay: Who.

580

:

interrupts at a very specific moment.

581

:

But there's also the chime of the comms.

582

:

As if he just showed up the second

that someone said, Le Mojus,

583

:

that he was able to respond to.

584

:

Then why don't they

585

:

get themselves out?

586

:

I don't know.

587

:

Maybe they like it in there.

588

:

I don't think so.

589

:

Kay: cause he observes that there

was evidence of neural trauma.

590

:

Khaki: Yes.

591

:

Kay: And that the people

who died, died of it.

592

:

Khaki: Yes, and elevated levels of

endocrine, or whatever it is that

593

:

he calls it, But it is decided that

the only way to find out what's

594

:

going on is to send in an away team.

595

:

Kay: team.

596

:

I guess they must kind

of figure that they can

597

:

Khaki: I guess they must kind of figure

that they can extract the other people,

598

:

because they're going to set a five

minute timer, and after that there's

599

:

going to be an extraction program.

600

:

Kay: there's be an program.

601

:

That actually makes quite a bit of sense,

602

:

Khaki: Yeah.

603

:

We've tapped into the system's

604

:

recall subroutine program.

605

:

L'll give you five minutes

606

:

to look around,

607

:

then l'm bringing you back.

608

:

Consider this a test run.

609

:

Understood.

610

:

Kay: bibbidi boop, and they find

themselves in this weird environment.

611

:

Khaki: Yeah, it's like

all bright primary colors.

612

:

And, yes, it looks a bit

like a carnival, I suppose.

613

:

Kay: Oh, reminded me a bit of

the sort of free spirit colony

614

:

Khaki: uh, A little bit,

615

:

Kay: Lwaxana took Alexander to.

616

:

Khaki: Or A scene that you might

find in the original, uh, Balog

617

:

Tactica when they're like on the, uh,

618

:

Kay: Oh, on a Pleasure Planet Pleasure

619

:

Khaki: Planet or wherever it is.

620

:

It's not, it's not

called that in that time.

621

:

Kay: No, it was called

the Planet Carillon.

622

:

right?

623

:

Khaki: Yes.

624

:

Which, where people were being like

harvested for food for the lizard

625

:

people underneath, wasn't it?

626

:

Where am I confusing things now?

627

:

I think there was

628

:

Kay: There's a little bit of V in

629

:

Khaki: I think there.

630

:

was something like that going on.

631

:

Yes.

632

:

we get our first shot from the clown and.

633

:

it's made pretty damn obvious that

he is the evil guy, from the look

634

:

that he gets to give the camera.

635

:

Kay: Yeah, like we even see over his

shoulder for a while while, uh, Harry

636

:

and B'Elanna are looking around at this

wonderland of people in brightly colored,

637

:

skin tight suits doing circus tricks.

638

:

A lot of these people came from Cirque

639

:

Khaki: Oh, yes.

640

:

Kay: anD they're, they're

greeted by a, a small woman and

641

:

she's called the little woman.

642

:

And this is also one of

those cool bits of casting.

643

:

this actress is Patty Malone and

she is, she's kind of legendary.

644

:

Like almost nobody has heard of her,

but she's she unifies franchises.

645

:

Cause she also played Lumpy

Waru, Chewbacca's son in the

646

:

Star Wars holiday special.

647

:

And she played Tweaky in

three episodes of Buck Rogers.

648

:

Yeah.

649

:

Khaki: Cool.

650

:

You're new.

651

:

Yes, we are.

652

:

Where are you from?

653

:

Another town.

654

:

There aren't any other towns.

655

:

Khaki: Then why the did you

ask me where I came from?

656

:

Kay: And then a creepy giant

headed thing comes in and says

657

:

Perhaps l can help you.

658

:

Kay: That character is called the

specter played by Carlos Struyken.

659

:

Do you remember that name?

660

:

Khaki: Ooh and,

661

:

Kay: lot of Dutch names

662

:

Khaki: in

663

:

no.

664

:

So my first, I'm gonna go for, uh, Mr.

665

:

Hol, correct?

666

:

Yeah.

667

:

Kay: Here's only other

credit in Star Trek.

668

:

Mr.

669

:

Hom, Lwaxana's assistant, or uh,

Major Domo, and This giant creature.

670

:

I think it's even his voice.

671

:

Although, honestly and Chief Greg

will appreciate this, he sounds

672

:

like an Elcor from Mass Effect.

673

:

Khaki: Okay?

674

:

I'll take your word for it.

675

:

Kay: Thank you.

676

:

Thank you for your trust in me.

677

:

Khaki: There's also a, yeah, like I said,

a very Barbie esque guillotine standing

678

:

there with a traditional muscle man,

you know, the kind of guy that lifts

679

:

weights and bends bars at carnivals.

680

:

Kay: he's really weirdly proportionate

or like his costume makes him seem

681

:

Khaki: right.

682

:

Oh, it looks like he skipped leg day.

683

:

Kay: Yeah, he's got a, tight sort of

singlet but he also has a, a face mask.

684

:

Clearly too small for his head.

685

:

So it gives him all

these weird proportions.

686

:

And yes, all the colors are wild.

687

:

there was a decision made

between, uh, director Marvin V.

688

:

Rush and the cinematographer

to use a special type of filter

689

:

that permits like primary colors

through and kind of dampens middle

690

:

wavelengths, uh, Quite a lot.

691

:

It's a similar technology to

what's used in, uh, color enhancing

692

:

glasses for people with low color

693

:

Khaki: vision.

694

:

Oh yes, yeah.

695

:

Kay: Just like isolating some

of the more extreme frequencies

696

:

and dampening everything

697

:

Khaki: else.

698

:

Yeah.

699

:

the log of wood gets

chopped by the guillotine.

700

:

Like, already, like, setting a

little bit of a macabre atmosphere.

701

:

For which is still a

fairly friendly party.

702

:

Until the log gets chopped.

703

:

And they decide, like, well, we

might want to get out of here.

704

:

Kay: There's some dope music here.

705

:

it's a weird sort of 90s dance music.

706

:

It sounds like a, kid's game show.

707

:

action song.

708

:

As they're being bustled along to

the next segment of the game show.

709

:

Time for the Gak, or the whatever.

710

:

Khaki: Also, everybody's masks change.

711

:

Kay: Oh, wait, what

712

:

Khaki: They, yeah, everybody's wearing

colourful masks, but after the log

713

:

drops and they get hustled by the

crowd, everybody's wearing grey masks.

714

:

Kay: Oh, whoa,

715

:

whoa.

716

:

You are right.

717

:

Khaki: changes a few more times during

the when everything is good and friendly,

718

:

then all the masks are, colorful.

719

:

And then when things get a

little bit more tense and, uh,

720

:

Kay: Dude, that's amazing!

721

:

Khaki: everybody's suddenly

wearing gray masks.

722

:

Kay: GIFs now.

723

:

Oh,

724

:

wow, that's so intense.

725

:

Khaki: Harry gets put in the guillotine.

726

:

Kay: And the little woman comes

across and, uh, feather dusts the

727

:

guillotine to make sure that, Oh,

728

:

Khaki: have it nice and neat.

729

:

But just before the blade

is dropped our three aliens

730

:

arrive and they go like, Stop!

731

:

They're aliens!

732

:

And they won't be alone.

733

:

Kill them, and their shipmates

734

:

will shut down the program.

735

:

Let him go!

736

:

Kay: you can see how quickly

the clowns like emotions change.

737

:

he's fascinating to watch.

738

:

He's so responsive.

739

:

Sorry, reactive.

740

:

I want to, I want to say, but he's also

very intelligent and he has like complex

741

:

mental models that he's maintaining.

742

:

And he's also very vulnerable to whims.

743

:

He's really interesting.

744

:

Michael McKean obviously

does a fantastic job.

745

:

He, uh, shows how much he knows

because, like, he addresses Bilana.

746

:

You're like me.

747

:

A little of this

748

:

and a little of that.

749

:

. Kay: Because she's of two worlds.

750

:

And shows just how much he

knows about everyone here.

751

:

He can name them.

752

:

Uh, he knows their background.

753

:

Talks to Harry Kim.

754

:

Oh, you're an engineer.

755

:

He knows what that is.

756

:

Khaki: He keeps chiding Kim almost

about, like, his engineering mind and

757

:

how he keeps thinking in solutions

and trying to, uh, fix things and, uh

758

:

Kay: oh yeah.

759

:

That must be quite offensive to,

someone who exists as an emotion.

760

:

Like, oh, you, you want to

live in a world without me

761

:

Khaki: it.

762

:

Kay: there's A

763

:

bit of a component of Inside Out, right?

764

:

Khaki: Oh, yes, absolutely.

765

:

I've got actually got it.

766

:

I've actually got that written down.

767

:

What if feelings had feelings?

768

:

Oh, yes.

769

:

Kay: Now I'm really curious

about these other beings.

770

:

Let's take a little moment

to sort of speculate on that.

771

:

Because it seems like fear is the

only real sort of entity here.

772

:

Almost like the other, you know, his

friends and the dancers and those

773

:

performers are like reflections of him.

774

:

What do you, what do you think they are?

775

:

Khaki: I think that this is the party

department of the original simulation.

776

:

Where they were just going to have a

nice little relaxed, you know party for

777

:

about 15 years while the environment

was, uh, regulating themselves.

778

:

Kay: might be.

779

:

It

780

:

Khaki: There might be.

781

:

It's like, it would make sense that

there's more than just this one room.

782

:

You'd hope, yeah.

783

:

Well, basically what happens as I

understand it, their fears of, outside

784

:

world might not come back, that they might

not survive the freeze drying process.

785

:

That got manifested by the feedback loop

built into the system and created this

786

:

persona who then started taking over

because, you know, that's what fear does.

787

:

They basically, they got

captured by their own fear.

788

:

They got paralyzed by fear.

789

:

Kay: I think that's really valid.

790

:

Yeah.

791

:

Because they've had no external

stimulus and without like experience

792

:

you can't really overcome fear.

793

:

Khaki: No, well, yeah, I mean, once

you get paralyzed by it, yeah, you

794

:

need, something to snap you out of it.

795

:

Kay: well, that's impossible to do

796

:

Khaki: impossible to do here, because fear

controls the environment, and that's why,

797

:

yeah, he starts with, like, demonstrating

the chop block, and willing, he's

798

:

perfectly willing to kill Kim immediately

in order to, like, Increases hold over

799

:

presumably Balana and the others as well.

800

:

I need you guys

801

:

but

802

:

I'm not above killing One or two of you,

803

:

Kay: because that's what we learn.

804

:

His existence, everyone's

existence in this environment, all

805

:

these virtual beings depends on

someone being there to experience

806

:

Khaki: it.

807

:

Yes.

808

:

it has to be a brain in the feedback

809

:

Kay: Yep, it has to be a living brain.

810

:

can't be artificial.

811

:

Khaki: Well, it could probably

be, but it wouldn't be the same.

812

:

Kay: think that's on knowledge that

Vyorsa has, as one of the people

813

:

who created this computer system.

814

:

Because that's what

makes fear so insidious.

815

:

So the clown in

816

:

Khaki: this case,

817

:

Kay: he actually has access

to everybody's brain.

818

:

There's a few minutes delay,

819

:

Khaki: Yes, but eventually once, once it

gets, uh, signaled in, then there's a,

820

:

uh, yeah, he can kind of read their minds.

821

:

Kay: Yep.

822

:

He has so much knowledge.

823

:

He has so much insight, but

I really like this concept.

824

:

That's just a few minutes delay

before he can actually know what

825

:

someone was, was thinking live.

826

:

Khaki: Yeah.

827

:

Beep, boop, wake up call,

five minute timer's up.

828

:

Kay: Yeah, and Harry and

Balanna go, Welp, time to go.

829

:

And the clowns, he does this

thing where he faces away from

830

:

them and then makes a threat.

831

:

If you leave,

832

:

one of them will die.

833

:

One of them will die.

834

:

Try it and see.

835

:

If you leave...

836

:

he dies.

837

:

Kay: And you can see that the person

that he's pointing at goes, Oh shit,

838

:

I should have, I should have known

that this was going to happen when I

839

:

realized I had the lowest billing out of

840

:

all the guest actors.

841

:

Khaki: guest actors.

842

:

Kay: Oh, and the worst wig.

843

:

I've just got these bangs

hanging off the side of my face.

844

:

Khaki: I mean, he's alright, I guess.

845

:

Is he the one?

846

:

No, he's not the one

who dies in the end, so.

847

:

Kay: Isn't

848

:

Khaki: he?

849

:

No, no, it's, it's, it's Videla

850

:

Kay: yeah, yeah, Vyorsa,

yeah, you're right.

851

:

Khaki: the one.

852

:

Kay: Ooh, I wonder how many times

Thomas Kapache has died in Star Trek.

853

:

Chief!

854

:

Greg: Of the seven characters in which.

855

:

Thomas Capace has played.

856

:

Four of them have died.

857

:

So he does not have a very good track

record his cover when it comes to, you

858

:

know, living through his appearances.

859

:

Their bodies are returning

860

:

to stasis condition, Captain.

861

:

Someone is terminating

862

:

the recall command

863

:

from inside the system.

864

:

Kay: to be working.

865

:

They're not stress levels, that's

866

:

And she's making observations.

867

:

Oh, they're in trouble, but

they're kind of stuck in there.

868

:

very confident, but he's just

on the cusp of actually being

869

:

able to influence the clown.

870

:

Trying to get the better of me?

871

:

Trying to trick me?

872

:

I know everything you know,

873

:

Harry Kim.

874

:

I know how much you miss Libby.

875

:

I know how you can never hit

876

:

that G-sharp

877

:

in the Mozart concerto.

878

:

Do you think l don't know

879

:

you're trying to defeat me?

880

:

Kay: He's always had this interesting

sort of combination of Not being

881

:

very experienced, but he is a a

fully trained Starfleet officer,

882

:

you know, he's department head

as an ensign so he's no rookie

883

:

Khaki: tHe clown goes off to a little

huddle with his friends, which he does

884

:

quite cutely by, not, not, not really

teleporting, but doing this, like,

885

:

off camera and suddenly somewhere else

886

:

Kay: Yes.

887

:

The camera moves and there he is

with his friends and they, they do

888

:

this beautiful mime where they sort

of look at Harry and Ana, turn away,

889

:

glance at them again, and then huddle.

890

:

It's such a good sheath.

891

:

And our heroes huddle with

their fellow prisoners and they

892

:

learn a lot of information.

893

:

Who wished him up?

894

:

It happened over months

895

:

without our even realizing it.

896

:

All of us had fears

897

:

about survival, recovery.

898

:

We never anticipated

899

:

the computer would manifest

900

:

those fears into him.

901

:

Khaki: the terror that that induces.

902

:

Because Harry is

903

:

Kay: because Harry is Jane way's

904

:

Khaki: She

905

:

Kay: and she won't let him come to

906

:

Khaki: him come to harm her.

907

:

Kay: I mean, it's, it's true.

908

:

It really

909

:

is true.

910

:

Khaki: But like, I mean, it must be some,

some shared knowledge, belief between

911

:

Balana and Harry that that's the case.

912

:

Because that's the only information,

that's the only information the clown

913

:

Kay: It goes

914

:

Khaki: comes unspoken.

915

:

Yeah.

916

:

Kay: Like, you don't see

Alana going, wait, what the

917

:

?

Hold on.

918

:

Khaki: It's like those masked

intruders who come barging in and

919

:

like, tell them that like, grab mom

and the kids and then tell them,

920

:

okay, which one are we going to?

921

:

We're going to kill one of your kids.

922

:

You tell us which one.

923

:

Kay: Wait, hold on.

924

:

How is that to

925

:

Khaki: And then at the

end, finally mom picks one.

926

:

And then it's like.

927

:

stop and they go like all right well

now you know that thing and tell the kid

928

:

like now we know who the favorite one is

929

:

and then they leave again

930

:

Kay: think

931

:

Khaki: it's

932

:

some sort of weird dark

comedy sketch or something is

933

:

Kay: Oh, okay.

934

:

Whew.

935

:

A lot of nightmares coming out of here.

936

:

Khaki: well that's what the episode's

about isn't it it's about fear yeah

937

:

Kay: yeah.

938

:

Yeah, so now there's another conference.

939

:

Um, notice how the conferences

get increasingly darker?

940

:

Khaki: Oh, lighted wise?

941

:

Uh,

942

:

Kay: yeah, now it's kind of muted.

943

:

Because they realize that they're

dealing with fear, and now they

944

:

start really philosophizing.

945

:

And this is where I was disappointed

that Neelix only gets to give

946

:

some pretty poor advice, like,

947

:

Maybe we should try

948

:

to make them laugh.

949

:

A good joke just...

950

:

uh, seems to make fear dissolve.

951

:

Well, it does in me, anyway.

952

:

Kay: and they completely ignore

him and just, and just move on.

953

:

It's interesting that Janeway

has some observations, like

954

:

fear is not a bad thing.

955

:

Like it tells us our,

limits makes us alert.

956

:

It does things like, Ooh, I'm actually

comparing it to an episode of enterprise

957

:

that we watched recently where red alert

was introduced as a sort of rapid response

958

:

and like warming up systems being afraid.

959

:

Like, it gets your heart pumping,

gets your blood oxygenated, so that

960

:

when you need to run You're already in

961

:

like a high performance state.

962

:

This was from Marvin Rush.

963

:

He, uh, gave some notes to Joe Manosky

that there ought to be some mention

964

:

that fear is, is actually pretty

965

:

Khaki: Fear is the mind killer.

966

:

Kay: okay.

967

:

If we go to

968

:

Khaki: Dune,

969

:

Kay: uh, and then I think

immediately about my favorite

970

:

line, I think it's from Children of

Dune where Paul Atreides children.

971

:

Yeah, strap in everybody.

972

:

This is one of those ones, are with

their grandmother, the lady, Jessica

973

:

who's worrying about something.

974

:

And, his children are kind of cheeky

and they look at the grandmother

975

:

and whisper to each other.

976

:

Oh, I think she's about to let

fear pass over her and through

977

:

Khaki: her.

978

:

Hahahahahaha!

979

:

Kay: So the decision is.

980

:

We're going to negotiate with him

on the sort of absolute basis on the

981

:

thing that he needs is his survival.

982

:

the negotiations going

to be based on that.

983

:

this comes after some taunting Because

984

:

the clown is kind of fixated on

Harry who refuses to be cowed.

985

:

He's got that young officer

courage which he just.

986

:

He really can't stand and he really wants

to undermine because he knows that there's

987

:

some insecurity lurking underneath.

988

:

and he really torments Harry by

realizing when one of the alien

989

:

women comes to his defense.

990

:

Hey, he doesn't know yet.

991

:

Khaki: He's new.

992

:

Kay: Ah, and you're old.

993

:

Khaki: yes, because he's

just thinking about escape.

994

:

And I don't like that, because that is

hope, and hope is the antithesis of fear.

995

:

So he starts to pick

on Harry a little bit.

996

:

Yes.

997

:

And he makes him old.

998

:

Kay: Very successful old person

makeup, I think I wonder for

999

:

these, if the makeup artists use

like photos of actors ancestors

:

00:38:58,562 --> 00:38:59,372

Khaki: Yeah, could be, yeah.

:

00:38:59,487 --> 00:39:04,077

Kay: as inspiration, but yeah, looks

like a very convincing, older Asian

:

00:39:04,272 --> 00:39:04,762

Khaki: Right.

:

00:39:04,967 --> 00:39:07,297

Yes, l know how you hate

:

00:39:07,297 --> 00:39:07,697

to feel

:

00:39:07,697 --> 00:39:09,327

like the baby on the crew.

:

00:39:09,327 --> 00:39:12,862

Ho-ho-ho-ho-ho!

:

00:39:16,397 --> 00:39:18,757

Oh, what's the matter, Harry?

:

00:39:19,057 --> 00:39:20,267

Ooh, does my costume

:

00:39:20,267 --> 00:39:20,747

frighten

:

00:39:23,370 --> 00:39:23,960

Khaki: And then we get a,

:

00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,430

little crying Asian baby

in a cute little Star Trek

:

00:39:27,824 --> 00:39:28,920

Kay: little star trick.

:

00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,954

Oh, it's so adorable, that baby is time.

:

00:39:32,954 --> 00:39:33,320

Uh.

:

00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:36,310

Khaki: which is, you know, I mean,

it must be really difficult to act.

:

00:39:36,310 --> 00:39:38,890

Well, like you have got

a crying baby on skin.

:

00:39:39,420 --> 00:39:42,350

Or maybe they, maybe they, or maybe

there was like, it just started

:

00:39:42,350 --> 00:39:43,530

crying and they rolled with it.

:

00:39:43,980 --> 00:39:44,320

You know?

:

00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,600

Kay: I wonder if it's actually

Michael McKean holding this, baby.

:

00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:49,500

I think so.

:

00:39:49,710 --> 00:39:52,160

'cause sometimes, you know, you

can have like the parent or the

:

00:39:52,165 --> 00:39:52,850

caregiver,

:

00:39:52,850 --> 00:39:54,022

like in the makeup.

:

00:39:54,092 --> 00:39:56,482

Khaki: Yeah, I was gonna say, or, or,

I mean, in this case, it would be easy

:

00:39:56,482 --> 00:39:59,262

enough to, like, put the parent or

the caregiver in one of the costumes.

:

00:39:59,262 --> 00:40:02,512

And, like, you know, just get them in

one of the party people costumes and have

:

00:40:02,512 --> 00:40:02,632

them

:

00:40:02,947 --> 00:40:04,316

Kay: of the

:

00:40:05,152 --> 00:40:06,702

Khaki: Well, maybe not that one, no,

:

00:40:07,010 --> 00:40:12,398

Kay: I've been trying to write about.

:

00:40:12,398 --> 00:40:15,989

Oh, I didn't know

:

00:40:16,157 --> 00:40:18,037

Khaki: kid babies don't

remember things like that.

:

00:40:18,417 --> 00:40:18,997

Anything, yeah.

:

00:40:19,077 --> 00:40:19,177

There's one

:

00:40:19,581 --> 00:40:20,479

Kay: not.

:

00:40:20,479 --> 00:40:25,866

Babies don't remember things like that.

:

00:40:26,137 --> 00:40:27,067

Way up in

:

00:40:27,134 --> 00:40:27,307

Khaki: the air,

:

00:40:27,907 --> 00:40:29,797

Kay: I sincerely hope is a puppet.

:

00:40:30,481 --> 00:40:34,261

Greg: The things I do for you boys,

because I did go back to listen

:

00:40:34,261 --> 00:40:36,421

through the Delta flyers, which is.

:

00:40:36,693 --> 00:40:38,913

Harry and Kim's actors, Robert, Dr.

:

00:40:38,913 --> 00:40:40,323

McNeil and Garrett Wong.

:

00:40:40,743 --> 00:40:44,193

Talking about all these episodes

of Voyager and they had Marvin rush

:

00:40:44,223 --> 00:40:46,353

on for this episode of the podcast.

:

00:40:46,413 --> 00:40:47,433

So I can tell you.

:

00:40:48,153 --> 00:40:49,293

It's not a real baby.

:

00:40:49,323 --> 00:40:51,183

Marvin wanted to throw the

real baby up in the air, but

:

00:40:51,183 --> 00:40:53,133

they did not let them do that.

:

00:40:53,133 --> 00:40:57,370

But yes, it is a puppet that was

made by prop master, Alan Sims

:

00:40:57,620 --> 00:40:59,900

and boy, can I just tell you.

:

00:41:00,170 --> 00:41:05,000

It works in motion, but if you're

just looking at it, It's it is.

:

00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:08,330

More nightmare fuel than the clown.

:

00:41:08,618 --> 00:41:11,378

go to memory alpha and

look up the thought.

:

00:41:11,438 --> 00:41:15,608

And just scroll down to

And sets and see this.

:

00:41:15,884 --> 00:41:20,144

Terrifying picture of this

baby prop they made for it.

:

00:41:20,144 --> 00:41:24,374

Cause it's just, it's really

unnerving, but it works in motion.

:

00:41:24,921 --> 00:41:29,531

Kay: But his torment of uh, Harry

like, first of all, it continues

:

00:41:29,531 --> 00:41:32,481

with a big long speech that he

holds with Kim and a little walk and

:

00:41:32,481 --> 00:41:36,131

talk while there's this wonderful sort

of ribbon dance being done behind them.

:

00:41:36,211 --> 00:41:36,551

Yeah.

:

00:41:36,631 --> 00:41:38,361

That's just absolutely captivating.

:

00:41:38,441 --> 00:41:41,451

Khaki: There's also a fire breathing

mask behind him, which almost

:

00:41:41,451 --> 00:41:43,488

catches fire when it, uh, starts up.

:

00:41:43,558 --> 00:41:44,078

Oh, yikes.

:

00:41:44,118 --> 00:41:46,708

You can see that it's actually kind

of like, not just coming out of its

:

00:41:46,708 --> 00:41:48,598

mouth as it does later on, but it's

:

00:41:48,693 --> 00:41:49,263

Kay: Because it's

:

00:41:49,498 --> 00:41:52,548

Khaki: it's covering, it's covering

on the, the mask is actually burning.

:

00:41:52,548 --> 00:41:53,278

It's like okay.

:

00:41:53,433 --> 00:41:55,553

A bit of fuel must have spilled out, yeah.

:

00:41:56,788 --> 00:41:56,963

filming.

:

00:41:57,733 --> 00:41:59,113

Nobody said cut yet, it's like.

:

00:41:59,153 --> 00:42:00,103

Kay: Well, yes.

:

00:42:00,103 --> 00:42:03,813

Well, one of these master characters

is on fire in the background and

:

00:42:03,813 --> 00:42:07,859

tells a terrible story about time in

Harry's life when he wandered away

:

00:42:07,859 --> 00:42:09,459

from his parents while visiting some.

:

00:42:09,579 --> 00:42:10,409

Khaki: A hospital.

:

00:42:11,049 --> 00:42:13,579

And he wandered around and he

saw things that he shouldn't.

:

00:42:14,234 --> 00:42:17,544

piCking a little at the scabs of

a bit of a childhood trauma there.

:

00:42:17,664 --> 00:42:17,912

Kay: there.

:

00:42:17,912 --> 00:42:21,296

Yeah, and you see how his,

like, resolve is rapidly

:

00:42:21,296 --> 00:42:22,562

deteriorating, it's breaking down.

:

00:42:22,562 --> 00:42:26,758

Uh, as he's being strapped to to this

operating table, he seems entirely

:

00:42:26,758 --> 00:42:28,556

powerless to uh, to help himself.

:

00:42:28,556 --> 00:42:32,159

Um, and it's the cackling of

all the people around that

:

00:42:32,159 --> 00:42:33,229

make this so terrifying.

:

00:42:33,279 --> 00:42:33,989

Khaki: Oh, yes.

:

00:42:34,254 --> 00:42:36,234

Kay: It's that Mad Max thing

where you're surrounded by

:

00:42:36,234 --> 00:42:37,974

people who are genuinely insane

:

00:42:38,526 --> 00:42:38,706

and

:

00:42:38,706 --> 00:42:41,041

reveling in your

suffering, and it's so ugh.

:

00:42:41,071 --> 00:42:42,216

It's so terrifying

:

00:42:50,941 --> 00:42:56,001

Khaki: There's a really big, yellow

headed mask in the background.

:

00:42:56,001 --> 00:42:58,211

There's a red one in the scene

as well, somewhere later on.

:

00:42:58,571 --> 00:42:58,931

And I'm just

:

00:42:58,936 --> 00:43:00,866

Kay: Oh, it looks a bit like Spock.

:

00:43:00,921 --> 00:43:02,091

Khaki: that looks, oh, it does a bit.

:

00:43:02,271 --> 00:43:06,971

What it really reminded me of is, was

a scene in Moonraker, I believe it is.

:

00:43:06,991 --> 00:43:08,772

Because it during the carnival in Rio.

:

00:43:08,772 --> 00:43:10,942

When there's a little switcheroo going on.

:

00:43:10,942 --> 00:43:13,422

It's, first it's Jaws

who's wearing that mask.

:

00:43:14,202 --> 00:43:14,282

James Bond.

:

00:43:14,392 --> 00:43:15,232

Yes, James Bond.

:

00:43:16,012 --> 00:43:18,662

Sorry, I said Moonraker.

:

00:43:18,662 --> 00:43:20,622

And they use very similar masks.

:

00:43:20,622 --> 00:43:22,867

I was wondering if it's like

a, copy or something like that.

:

00:43:22,867 --> 00:43:24,777

I don't remember what it looks like,

:

00:43:24,777 --> 00:43:27,587

but it's, like, I remember it was

like one of those big head things.

:

00:43:27,587 --> 00:43:29,917

And like, I think first

Jaws was wearing it.

:

00:43:29,917 --> 00:43:33,550

And I think later Bond uses it to

escape through the crowd or something.

:

00:43:34,270 --> 00:43:36,121

Do a little switcheroo.

:

00:43:36,131 --> 00:43:40,414

Kay: The clown , is given a

mask and a pretty scary scalpel.

:

00:43:40,449 --> 00:43:42,491

Khaki: not a scalpel,

that's a gardening tool.

:

00:43:43,251 --> 00:43:43,601

a scalpel.

:

00:43:43,601 --> 00:43:44,161

I know

:

00:43:44,236 --> 00:43:44,746

Kay: I know that

:

00:43:44,746 --> 00:43:47,506

it's a dude in, in, in bubble

wrap that we painted green.

:

00:43:47,506 --> 00:43:48,346

But if you imagine it's a

:

00:43:48,423 --> 00:43:48,551

Khaki: scalpel,

:

00:43:48,766 --> 00:43:52,876

Kay: he's holding it really close

and then boom, in comes the doctor.

:

00:43:52,901 --> 00:43:54,071

Khaki: Yeah, oh, you're holding it wrong.

:

00:43:54,326 --> 00:43:55,076

And how about: Correct positioning

:

00:43:55,076 --> 00:43:55,916

of the index finger

:

00:43:55,916 --> 00:43:56,476

is necessary

:

00:43:56,486 --> 00:43:57,626

for optimal dexterity.

:

00:43:58,075 --> 00:44:01,527

Kay: And with such shocking

confidence, like everybody falls quiet.

:

00:44:01,557 --> 00:44:04,847

Oh, here's someone who does not give

two shits about anything we're doing.

:

00:44:05,057 --> 00:44:07,747

And it just casually

like unstraps, Harry Kim.

:

00:44:07,757 --> 00:44:07,997

Like

:

00:44:08,325 --> 00:44:09,305

And how about: I'm Captain Janeway's

:

00:44:09,345 --> 00:44:10,135

representative.

:

00:44:11,095 --> 00:44:12,525

I'm here to negotiate with you.

:

00:44:12,709 --> 00:44:14,159

Kay: And the clown goes, well, hold on.

:

00:44:14,208 --> 00:44:15,148

I can't read you.

:

00:44:15,238 --> 00:44:15,488

Yes.

:

00:44:15,498 --> 00:44:17,408

Well, I have a very trustworthy

face says the doctor.

:

00:44:17,664 --> 00:44:18,218

Khaki: He's

:

00:44:19,635 --> 00:44:20,635

And how about: would provide continuing

:

00:44:20,645 --> 00:44:22,335

input from a simulated brain.

:

00:44:22,805 --> 00:44:23,625

A computer model

:

00:44:23,635 --> 00:44:24,005

that would generate...

:

00:44:24,005 --> 00:44:25,025

Simulated brain?

:

00:44:25,385 --> 00:44:25,975

Simulated?

:

00:44:26,365 --> 00:44:27,615

I myself have a com...

:

00:44:27,785 --> 00:44:28,445

lt won't work.

:

00:44:28,515 --> 00:44:29,085

It's a lie.

:

00:44:29,175 --> 00:44:29,785

Tell 'em, Harry.

:

00:44:29,996 --> 00:44:31,796

.

Kay: And he even brings VSA up there.

:

00:44:31,796 --> 00:44:33,727

No, I, I have this

knowledge from your Brain.

:

00:44:33,787 --> 00:44:37,417

You tell him and VSA says, yeah,

well, no, it might be possible with

:

00:44:37,417 --> 00:44:39,367

a slight recalibration of the pos

:

00:44:39,805 --> 00:44:41,427

Khaki: the positronic Optronic pathways,

:

00:44:41,617 --> 00:44:42,457

Kay: Yeah, exactly.

:

00:44:42,457 --> 00:44:43,417

No, you are lying.

:

00:44:43,422 --> 00:44:44,347

And he tosses him away.

:

00:44:44,997 --> 00:44:47,122

So that's not going to be an option.

:

00:44:47,825 --> 00:44:50,865

he makes it very clear, the Doctor

makes it very clear to the Clown.

:

00:44:50,895 --> 00:44:52,908

Hey, Janeway doesn't around.

:

00:44:52,938 --> 00:44:53,098

No.

:

00:44:53,518 --> 00:44:54,918

You've got to take her

seriously because she's out

:

00:44:55,153 --> 00:44:57,133

Khaki: she's got her hand on the

off switch and he goes, ah, she

:

00:44:57,133 --> 00:44:58,363

would never kill her own crew.

:

00:44:58,713 --> 00:45:01,743

And Harry is like, I'd

rather die than live here.

:

00:45:01,743 --> 00:45:02,643

And she knows that.

:

00:45:02,643 --> 00:45:03,523

And yeah.

:

00:45:03,603 --> 00:45:08,333

And then, the clown knows that because

he knows that like, you know, Jane will

:

00:45:08,333 --> 00:45:12,733

do everything she can, but she's not

going to leave them in this situation.

:

00:45:13,583 --> 00:45:16,073

She'll do anything for her

crew, but she won't do that.

:

00:45:16,145 --> 00:45:18,253

Kay: It's already

:

00:45:18,349 --> 00:45:19,249

And how about: Now go away

:

00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:21,149

and tell your Captain Janeway

:

00:45:21,409 --> 00:45:22,229

l'm disappointed.

:

00:45:22,309 --> 00:45:23,459

I expected more from her.

:

00:45:24,179 --> 00:45:24,819

If we could just...

:

00:45:24,819 --> 00:45:25,399

Go away!

:

00:45:26,055 --> 00:45:29,264

Kay: and now we see them conversing

in sick bay where the doctor's

:

00:45:29,264 --> 00:45:31,184

being debriefed, Janeway's there.

:

00:45:31,184 --> 00:45:31,874

Chakotay's there.

:

00:45:31,884 --> 00:45:34,034

Balana's there and, uh, and Tuvok's there.

:

00:45:34,349 --> 00:45:36,899

Khaki: And they're starting to

home in a little bit more on, yes,

:

00:45:36,919 --> 00:45:39,209

the, that he is the aspect of fear.

:

00:45:39,399 --> 00:45:42,419

Kay: Yes, he's unpredictable,

inconsistent, everything

:

00:45:42,419 --> 00:45:43,633

you'd expect from fear.

:

00:45:44,243 --> 00:45:47,586

They talk about how their initial offer

for an artificial brain was rejected.

:

00:45:47,586 --> 00:45:50,076

And Balana sort of points out,

well, what he said about like

:

00:45:50,376 --> 00:45:51,989

recalibrating the optronic

:

00:45:52,009 --> 00:45:53,019

pathways, it doesn't

:

00:45:53,029 --> 00:45:53,809

make any sense.

:

00:45:53,849 --> 00:45:55,599

And then Tuvok goes,

well, then why did he say

:

00:45:55,738 --> 00:45:56,221

Khaki: say it?

:

00:45:56,221 --> 00:45:58,674

Yeah, there must be

something else going on here.

:

00:45:58,799 --> 00:46:02,009

Kay: And there's Rubububububu Technobabble

:

00:46:02,089 --> 00:46:05,559

Khaki: Plan is formed to, instead of

taking them out of the environment, is

:

00:46:05,559 --> 00:46:07,079

to take the environment out of them.

:

00:46:07,736 --> 00:46:12,776

Kay: the environment, is to take

the environment out of them.

:

00:46:12,776 --> 00:46:17,326

Technically, he knows, he

knows it has information,

:

00:46:17,573 --> 00:46:17,793

Khaki: deception.

:

00:46:17,843 --> 00:46:20,653

Technically, he knows it, he has

this information, but if he's not

:

00:46:20,653 --> 00:46:24,053

focusing on it, he has to realize

that he needs to dig something for it.

:

00:46:24,488 --> 00:46:27,948

Computers like, all knowing, but

not necessarily all reacting.

:

00:46:28,126 --> 00:46:29,108

Kay: be Oh, yeah, yeah,

:

00:46:29,108 --> 00:46:29,418

yep.

:

00:46:29,418 --> 00:46:31,473

You have a certain amount of

concentration that you have to

:

00:46:31,628 --> 00:46:34,198

Khaki: on this end, but not on

whatever, you know what I mean?

:

00:46:34,248 --> 00:46:35,488

Kay: No, we'll get there, yeah.

:

00:46:36,653 --> 00:46:38,821

Uh, more fire breathing in this world.

:

00:46:38,821 --> 00:46:42,571

where where the clown is having a sulk.

:

00:46:43,076 --> 00:46:43,666

Khaki: Yes.

:

00:46:44,221 --> 00:46:45,911

Kay: He goes, I'm in a bad mood.

:

00:46:46,156 --> 00:46:47,536

Khaki: You put me in a bad mood.

:

00:46:48,141 --> 00:46:50,421

Kay: The little woman tells him,

:

00:46:50,566 --> 00:46:51,456

And how about: Don't be a poop!

:

00:46:52,017 --> 00:46:56,627

. Kay: Which is a gif that I'm going

to be using a lot, let me tell you.

:

00:46:56,970 --> 00:46:57,177

Khaki: you.

:

00:46:57,177 --> 00:46:58,617

I'm feeling sorry for myself.

:

00:46:58,627 --> 00:46:59,847

Well, take it out on them then.

:

00:46:59,937 --> 00:47:00,397

Oh, that's a

:

00:47:00,631 --> 00:47:01,368

Kay: the insect game.

:

00:47:01,368 --> 00:47:01,621

Yeah,

:

00:47:01,697 --> 00:47:01,957

Khaki: that.

:

00:47:01,987 --> 00:47:03,607

Let's go play the insect game.

:

00:47:04,224 --> 00:47:05,667

Kay: like snatching at the air like

:

00:47:05,857 --> 00:47:09,027

Khaki: You can see him like walking up and

like snatching at the air like he's trying

:

00:47:09,027 --> 00:47:11,017

to grab bugs out of the air or something.

:

00:47:11,737 --> 00:47:14,560

Kay: And once again his fun is

spoiled by the appearance of the

:

00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:15,040

doctor.

:

00:47:15,050 --> 00:47:16,540

Who goes, it me again.

:

00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:17,390

Hello.

:

00:47:17,955 --> 00:47:21,455

Khaki: Hey, oh, yes, we are

here to negotiate once more.

:

00:47:21,885 --> 00:47:26,278

We are going to give you a cloaking

device, which is, red herring, of course.

:

00:47:26,838 --> 00:47:27,698

But, yes,

:

00:47:28,189 --> 00:47:29,249

And how about: I'm talking about a device

:

00:47:29,269 --> 00:47:30,209

that would shield you

:

00:47:30,229 --> 00:47:31,599

from being detected by any

:

00:47:31,609 --> 00:47:33,299

other interstellar visitors.

:

00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:34,560

Kay: occasionally

:

00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,120

getting fresh meat should be attractive to

:

00:47:36,143 --> 00:47:36,615

Khaki: to him.

:

00:47:36,615 --> 00:47:37,151

You'd think

:

00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:39,762

Kay: has no way to trap

people in this system.

:

00:47:39,762 --> 00:47:41,412

They have to voluntarily hook

:

00:47:41,655 --> 00:47:42,727

Khaki: themselves Come in, yes.

:

00:47:43,102 --> 00:47:44,292

Kay: And they could easily turn it off.

:

00:47:44,302 --> 00:47:47,823

So yeah, for him it's quite attractive

to be concealed, but it is a ruse.

:

00:47:48,203 --> 00:47:52,533

And meanwhile, B'Elanna is out

there, like, wedging open a panel and

:

00:47:52,533 --> 00:47:54,613

looking at, oh, there's 40 optronic

:

00:47:55,187 --> 00:47:59,348

Khaki: And she takes out

her sonic screwdriver.

:

00:47:59,348 --> 00:47:59,942

Yeah.

:

00:47:59,942 --> 00:48:01,073

And starts,

:

00:48:01,233 --> 00:48:03,693

Kay: And she takes out her sonic

screwdriver and she starts like

:

00:48:03,693 --> 00:48:06,963

reversing the polarity of the

neutron flow on a conveniently

:

00:48:06,963 --> 00:48:08,493

numbered set of colored lights.

:

00:48:08,603 --> 00:48:12,678

Khaki: And as the discussions inside

are continuing, you see people just like

:

00:48:12,678 --> 00:48:14,618

slowly disappearing from the background.

:

00:48:14,618 --> 00:48:14,768

I

:

00:48:14,938 --> 00:48:16,078

Kay: I had a hard time seeing it.

:

00:48:16,078 --> 00:48:16,498

I heard it

:

00:48:16,498 --> 00:48:18,028

happening and I knew it was happening.

:

00:48:18,033 --> 00:48:18,688

Yeah, yeah, right.

:

00:48:18,688 --> 00:48:21,105

I could tell that like people

should be removing, but I

:

00:48:21,405 --> 00:48:23,225

Khaki: quite see yeah, you could,

you, yeah, you could actually, you

:

00:48:23,225 --> 00:48:25,755

could, you could, you could keep

a close eye on the background and

:

00:48:25,755 --> 00:48:26,975

you can, you could see that happen.

:

00:48:27,265 --> 00:48:30,185

Kay: Until there were very few left

and then suddenly the clown notices.

:

00:48:30,860 --> 00:48:31,880

And how about: You tricked me!

:

00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:33,620

It's an attack!

:

00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:34,900

It's an attack!

:

00:48:35,420 --> 00:48:35,980

Red Alert!

:

00:48:36,450 --> 00:48:37,030

Red Alert!

:

00:48:38,262 --> 00:48:42,012

Kay: And he retaliates very

extremely by taking Vyorsa, whom

:

00:48:42,012 --> 00:48:43,209

he blames for conveying this

:

00:48:43,328 --> 00:48:43,899

Khaki: this information.

:

00:48:43,899 --> 00:48:48,454

Uh,

:

00:48:48,999 --> 00:48:49,019

Kay: on.

:

00:48:49,019 --> 00:48:50,819

Brings out Barbie's first guillotine.

:

00:48:51,489 --> 00:48:52,109

stRaps him in it.

:

00:48:52,149 --> 00:48:54,019

And this was really hard to watch.

:

00:48:54,049 --> 00:48:57,576

Like, all this screaming

and laughing and the terror.

:

00:48:59,266 --> 00:49:01,186

Do you remember this

episode from, your pre

:

00:49:01,656 --> 00:49:03,036

Khaki: I don't think I made it this far.

:

00:49:03,366 --> 00:49:03,776

Kay: Really?

:

00:49:03,776 --> 00:49:04,356

It's only season

:

00:49:04,776 --> 00:49:04,946

Khaki: Yeah,

:

00:49:04,946 --> 00:49:05,726

end of it though.

:

00:49:06,096 --> 00:49:06,516

Kay: Okay.

:

00:49:07,216 --> 00:49:09,296

Uh, was that your, your Voyager voyage?

:

00:49:10,256 --> 00:49:13,836

Khaki: I don't recall how much

Voyager I was, was watching it.

:

00:49:13,836 --> 00:49:17,054

Like, I, Okay, as I seem to

recall, what was that, DS9?

:

00:49:17,054 --> 00:49:20,614

I mean, at the time it was

airing When did it start airing?

:

00:49:21,817 --> 00:49:22,734

in 95.

:

00:49:22,734 --> 00:49:23,794

95, yeah.

:

00:49:23,794 --> 00:49:26,664

That was around the period that I

stopped watching a lot less live TV.

:

00:49:27,134 --> 00:49:32,734

And there was the issue with, of course,

episodes and hiatuses and stuff like that.

:

00:49:32,984 --> 00:49:33,104

Kay: Yeah.

:

00:49:33,104 --> 00:49:34,214

It was airing on the b bbc, I

:

00:49:34,219 --> 00:49:34,354

Khaki: see.

:

00:49:34,354 --> 00:49:36,194

Yeah, I mean, I had access to the BBC.

:

00:49:37,274 --> 00:49:38,137

Kay: in the Netherlands.

:

00:49:38,142 --> 00:49:38,292

Yeah.

:

00:49:38,587 --> 00:49:38,707

Yeah.

:

00:49:38,707 --> 00:49:40,687

For me that was, uh, I, I know

what you're talking about.

:

00:49:40,692 --> 00:49:43,357

I had the same with, uh,

like season seven of Voyager.

:

00:49:43,477 --> 00:49:45,492

When we did a rewatch a

few years back, I discover.

:

00:49:46,042 --> 00:49:46,592

Woah!

:

00:49:46,672 --> 00:49:47,812

There's a whole bunch

of episodes I've never

:

00:49:47,888 --> 00:49:48,022

Khaki: seen.

:

00:49:48,082 --> 00:49:48,392

Yeah.

:

00:49:48,582 --> 00:49:49,902

Kay: Which was really fantastic.

:

00:49:49,912 --> 00:49:52,962

Like to be a Star Trek fan and

to discover that there was a

:

00:49:52,962 --> 00:49:54,372

bunch of episodes that you could,

:

00:49:54,482 --> 00:49:55,992

Khaki: You just completely missed, yeah.

:

00:49:56,292 --> 00:49:57,682

Kay: So, so cool.

:

00:49:57,922 --> 00:49:59,002

But I remember this one.

:

00:49:59,062 --> 00:50:00,452

Oh, I was glad when it was

:

00:50:00,597 --> 00:50:00,732

Khaki: over

:

00:50:00,802 --> 00:50:02,082

Ha ha ha ha.

:

00:50:02,082 --> 00:50:02,372

Whoa!

:

00:50:02,452 --> 00:50:03,042

Kay: It's terrifying.

:

00:50:03,042 --> 00:50:03,942

There's so much screaming and

:

00:50:04,392 --> 00:50:09,097

Khaki: B'Elanna is still disabling

the pathways, and Shields up!

:

00:50:10,947 --> 00:50:14,377

The little force field gets thrown up

over the optronic pathways and she's

:

00:50:18,335 --> 00:50:20,234

Kay: they

:

00:50:20,684 --> 00:50:23,801

Khaki: Well, that's, first they notice

the mounting terror, tension, and then

:

00:50:23,801 --> 00:50:28,481

when the, the, the blade drops, so to

speak, then yes, he dies instantly.

:

00:50:28,611 --> 00:50:31,681

They don't try to take him out, they

don't try to revive him, they just like

:

00:50:32,236 --> 00:50:35,136

Kay: Yeah, I had that written down

initially, and then I immediately

:

00:50:35,136 --> 00:50:39,306

abandoned that, like, clearly there

are reasons why this isn't possible,

:

00:50:39,306 --> 00:50:42,756

you know, their brains are dependent on

this computer system, the doctor, yeah,

:

00:50:42,956 --> 00:50:46,071

reviving them just isn't an option,

because it wasn't a regular heart attack.

:

00:50:46,861 --> 00:50:48,911

Khaki: They also leave the dead

guy in the pod, by the way.

:

00:50:48,911 --> 00:50:51,711

I noticed that much later

on in one of the scenes.

:

00:50:51,711 --> 00:50:54,421

He's still in the pod there.

:

00:50:54,421 --> 00:50:55,356

Because we've seen

:

00:50:55,356 --> 00:50:55,591

from

:

00:50:55,658 --> 00:50:57,446

Kay: seen from the other

ones, they decay in

:

00:50:57,641 --> 00:50:57,849

Khaki: there.

:

00:50:57,849 --> 00:50:59,491

Yeah, but it'll probably take a while.

:

00:51:00,156 --> 00:51:00,331

Cool.

:

00:51:00,331 --> 00:51:03,641

Also, how do they suddenly start

decaying if they're still in stasis?

:

00:51:03,641 --> 00:51:06,051

Or does the stasis get

turned off when they die?

:

00:51:08,116 --> 00:51:09,406

Kay: what the definition of stasis

:

00:51:09,451 --> 00:51:09,631

Khaki: is.

:

00:51:09,641 --> 00:51:09,961

No.

:

00:51:10,366 --> 00:51:13,586

Kay: Maybe it's just immobility and

life support, but they're still aging.

:

00:51:14,231 --> 00:51:15,341

Khaki: Okay, yeah.

:

00:51:16,066 --> 00:51:16,346

Kay: I don't know.

:

00:51:16,346 --> 00:51:19,396

Maybe they're just, it's a, it's

a, it's a long term healthful

:

00:51:19,396 --> 00:51:20,686

sleep so you don't get atrophied.

:

00:51:20,696 --> 00:51:21,106

Khaki: I guess,

:

00:51:21,226 --> 00:51:22,226

Kay: the, what the deal is.

:

00:51:22,756 --> 00:51:23,577

And how about: Captain, this one's

:

00:51:23,577 --> 00:51:24,437

norepinephrine levels

:

00:51:24,437 --> 00:51:25,257

are approaching critical.

:

00:51:30,687 --> 00:51:30,757

You're next!

:

00:51:30,757 --> 00:51:30,763

You're next!

:

00:51:30,763 --> 00:51:32,047

Restore the entire program.

:

00:51:32,994 --> 00:51:34,844

Khaki: the clown is, we've won, we've won.

:

00:51:34,864 --> 00:51:38,666

It's like a great cut, that like

between the, the doer atmosphere in

:

00:51:38,666 --> 00:51:42,576

the room where the pods are and the

party atmosphere in the simulation.

:

00:51:43,446 --> 00:51:46,503

Kay: Yep cause Janeway orders

Bellana, turn the pathways

:

00:51:46,513 --> 00:51:48,003

back on, bring everything back.

:

00:51:48,243 --> 00:51:50,290

And yes, this was a

triumph for the villain.

:

00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:52,790

Khaki: Celebration, start the music.

:

00:51:53,498 --> 00:51:57,138

Doc is talking to Janeway to tell her

that, like, you did the right thing you

:

00:51:57,138 --> 00:51:58,898

saved everybody else by capitulating.

:

00:51:59,776 --> 00:52:03,346

Kay: but she very intelligently,

like she starts to think about

:

00:52:03,346 --> 00:52:05,136

his, his, his longer motivations.

:

00:52:05,216 --> 00:52:06,836

Like what is he actually after?

:

00:52:07,306 --> 00:52:08,596

Because he's very erratic.

:

00:52:08,596 --> 00:52:12,376

Yeah, but he's also clearly

intelligent and he's a manifestation

:

00:52:12,396 --> 00:52:13,696

of like a primal emotion.

:

00:52:13,708 --> 00:52:17,076

it's gotta have some kind of end

goal that she's trying to suss out.

:

00:52:18,416 --> 00:52:22,026

fOr now, he seems to be enjoying

himself, tormenting poor Harry.

:

00:52:22,536 --> 00:52:24,710

But before we see any more of

that torment, the doctor shows

:

00:52:24,733 --> 00:52:24,845

Khaki: up

:

00:52:24,845 --> 00:52:25,075

again!

:

00:52:25,075 --> 00:52:27,605

Yeah, well, he sure learned how

to bring a party to health, and

:

00:52:29,710 --> 00:52:32,943

Kay: And the captain has sent him in

with an ultimatum and suddenly the

:

00:52:32,943 --> 00:52:34,913

clown has like his whole troop behind

:

00:52:34,988 --> 00:52:35,118

Khaki: him.

:

00:52:35,198 --> 00:52:35,548

Yeah.

:

00:52:35,783 --> 00:52:36,893

Kay: It's so cool.

:

00:52:37,584 --> 00:52:38,514

And how about: Ultimatum?!

:

00:52:38,964 --> 00:52:39,704

Ultimatum.

:

00:52:39,774 --> 00:52:41,884

She would give me an ultimatum?

:

00:52:44,427 --> 00:52:46,797

, Kay: Oh, I'm looking at the Jeeves now

to see if their masks change again.

:

00:52:46,797 --> 00:52:47,707

I don't think that that's the

:

00:52:47,912 --> 00:52:48,102

Khaki: the case.

:

00:52:48,102 --> 00:52:48,752

Not here, no.

:

00:52:49,427 --> 00:52:53,321

Kay: but yeah, it's such a

weird on Star Trek vibe here.

:

00:52:53,801 --> 00:52:54,191

Right.

:

00:52:54,381 --> 00:52:55,961

Which is very upsetting.

:

00:52:55,973 --> 00:52:57,724

if you're expecting Star Trek to always be

:

00:52:57,985 --> 00:52:58,049

Khaki: uniform.

:

00:52:58,099 --> 00:53:03,009

Yeah, uh, and basically he says like,

well cheese, you've got, you have

:

00:53:03,009 --> 00:53:04,669

one minute this, here's the deal.

:

00:53:05,234 --> 00:53:07,014

You let everybody go, you get to keep one.

:

00:53:07,954 --> 00:53:10,984

Otherwise, we'll shut it

off and we kill everybody.

:

00:53:11,464 --> 00:53:13,534

Kay: And he just, he keeps counting down

:

00:53:13,842 --> 00:53:14,852

And how about: 52 seconds.

:

00:53:15,211 --> 00:53:16,501

Kay: and he's so calm

:

00:53:16,501 --> 00:53:16,891

about it.

:

00:53:16,891 --> 00:53:16,981

Mm-Hmm.

:

00:53:17,241 --> 00:53:17,251

Khaki: hmm

:

00:53:17,327 --> 00:53:18,327

And how about: 43 seconds.

:

00:53:18,757 --> 00:53:19,177

Kay: think he's

:

00:53:19,177 --> 00:53:20,107

absolutely right.

:

00:53:20,112 --> 00:53:22,504

I think at zero Jay, would

indeed pull the plug.

:

00:53:22,834 --> 00:53:26,191

Khaki: Yes, but he hasn't

played his last card yet.

:

00:53:26,651 --> 00:53:29,061

the clown pleads like,

no, I need more time.

:

00:53:29,381 --> 00:53:32,661

And like about, like about

halfway down the, uh, count,

:

00:53:32,931 --> 00:53:34,531

he throws in the final hook,

:

00:53:34,766 --> 00:53:35,516

And how about: 20 seconds.

:

00:53:36,046 --> 00:53:36,956

There is another provision.

:

00:53:37,536 --> 00:53:38,096

The one hostage

:

00:53:38,096 --> 00:53:39,096

you will be allowed to keep

:

00:53:39,746 --> 00:53:41,126

is Captain Janeway herself.

:

00:53:41,972 --> 00:53:42,042

Khaki: suddenly

:

00:53:42,042 --> 00:53:45,982

he goes like, Oh, she would

choose to be with moi.

:

00:53:48,592 --> 00:53:51,412

Kay: We haven't even talked about his

makeup, by the way, or his costume.

:

00:53:51,722 --> 00:53:52,992

Khaki: No, I thought I'd spare you that.

:

00:53:53,482 --> 00:53:55,942

Kay: Well, he's very weird for a clown.

:

00:53:56,032 --> 00:53:56,122

Oh yeah.

:

00:53:56,127 --> 00:53:57,237

He's the least colorful.

:

00:53:58,581 --> 00:53:58,712

Khaki: here.

:

00:53:58,752 --> 00:53:59,012

Right.

:

00:53:59,067 --> 00:54:02,377

Kay: He's all in greys in, in,

in fact, he, he looks like he's

:

00:54:02,377 --> 00:54:04,317

wearing like chain mail made out of

:

00:54:04,537 --> 00:54:04,787

like

:

00:54:04,802 --> 00:54:07,982

Khaki: looks like he's wearing a dog suit

where they took the ears and the nose off.

:

00:54:08,099 --> 00:54:09,305

Kay: took the ears and the

:

00:54:09,422 --> 00:54:13,753

Khaki: what's that, series called again

with, not, uh, Harry Potter, but the

:

00:54:13,858 --> 00:54:13,898

Kay: other

:

00:54:13,898 --> 00:54:14,508

one is Wilfred.

:

00:54:14,513 --> 00:54:15,043

Khaki: Wilfred.

:

00:54:15,053 --> 00:54:15,673

Yes, that's the

:

00:54:15,738 --> 00:54:19,423

Kay: And, ooh, Australian comedian,

who I forget, weird dog suit, as an

:

00:54:19,423 --> 00:54:23,283

imaginary man in a dog suit, that only,

only Elijah Wood's character can see.

:

00:54:23,945 --> 00:54:24,955

Khaki: that suit kind of reminds me.

:

00:54:24,965 --> 00:54:28,412

It's the same kind of like, Jeep fursuit

costume that we're talking about.

:

00:54:28,747 --> 00:54:31,795

Kay: must have been such a

weird thing to wear, but I guess

:

00:54:31,830 --> 00:54:34,470

Khaki: Fluffy jammies,

I guess, with a cowl.

:

00:54:34,485 --> 00:54:35,715

Kay: It looks so scratchy.

:

00:54:35,715 --> 00:54:37,515

Oh, I'm looking down at the

scarf that I'm wearing right

:

00:54:37,553 --> 00:54:37,640

Khaki: now.

:

00:54:37,750 --> 00:54:38,100

Ah.

:

00:54:38,220 --> 00:54:38,520

it's kind of

:

00:54:39,010 --> 00:54:40,780

Ha ha ha, it's got the

right color for it, yes.

:

00:54:41,655 --> 00:54:43,855

Kay: We see Janeway making

good on her promise.

:

00:54:43,855 --> 00:54:45,011

She's climbing into one of the

:

00:54:45,113 --> 00:54:46,026

Khaki: empty Into the pods,

:

00:54:46,331 --> 00:54:46,631

Kay: uh,

:

00:54:46,681 --> 00:54:47,011

pods.

:

00:54:47,011 --> 00:54:49,208

She's asking Kes to

help her get hooked up.

:

00:54:49,671 --> 00:54:52,811

meanwhile, the clown and all of his

minions are preparing for her arrival.

:

00:54:52,821 --> 00:54:53,401

Dust everything.

:

00:54:53,401 --> 00:54:54,221

I want it to be spotless.

:

00:54:54,241 --> 00:54:55,191

I want it to be sparkling.

:

00:54:55,331 --> 00:54:57,381

Khaki: Yes, which is kind of weird,

because like, you should be able

:

00:54:57,381 --> 00:54:59,911

to just like, wish it that way.

:

00:55:00,161 --> 00:55:01,401

Kay: Yes, but it's all performance,

:

00:55:01,531 --> 00:55:02,501

Khaki: course it is, yes.

:

00:55:03,404 --> 00:55:03,584

and

:

00:55:03,604 --> 00:55:04,814

Kay: then Everyone vanishes

:

00:55:05,244 --> 00:55:06,304

when Janeway arrives in this

:

00:55:06,604 --> 00:55:08,604

Khaki: Yes, so I wonder what that is.

:

00:55:08,604 --> 00:55:12,114

Is it just like him wanting to

like, have some alone time with her?

:

00:55:12,746 --> 00:55:15,096

Kay: I really don't know whether,

whether she's doing it or whether

:

00:55:15,436 --> 00:55:19,083

he's hiding everyone else so she can

enjoy her surprise when they show up.

:

00:55:19,333 --> 00:55:20,713

Khaki: I think so, yeah.

:

00:55:21,033 --> 00:55:24,353

Kay: But there's the hostages

standing by the, uh, computer window.

:

00:55:24,993 --> 00:55:26,869

Also haven't really

described what they're like.

:

00:55:26,869 --> 00:55:29,469

They're, I mean, they're fairly

generic aliens of the week in

:

00:55:29,511 --> 00:55:29,619

Khaki: terms

:

00:55:29,619 --> 00:55:34,929

of Yeah, you know, not in a

:

00:55:35,562 --> 00:55:36,429

minute

:

00:55:36,539 --> 00:55:39,769

Kay: you know, not to diminish Michael

Westmore's and his team's fantastic

:

00:55:39,769 --> 00:55:45,239

work, but yeah, Star Trek did have

a thing, uh, a tradition of sometimes

:

00:55:45,309 --> 00:55:48,599

unremarkable aliens who are clearly

just humanoids with forehead bits.

:

00:55:48,599 --> 00:55:51,039

So you, so, you know, we

were kind of spoiled by

:

00:55:51,409 --> 00:55:51,973

Khaki: Farscape.

:

00:55:51,974 --> 00:55:52,854

Yes, absolutely.

:

00:55:53,999 --> 00:55:56,599

Kay: where everything is a,

is an exercise in extremism.

:

00:55:57,064 --> 00:55:59,364

Khaki: He seems, yeah, giddy almost.

:

00:55:59,424 --> 00:56:00,794

Excited to have her there.

:

00:56:00,794 --> 00:56:03,194

And she's cool and calculating.

:

00:56:03,194 --> 00:56:03,659

Yeah.

:

00:56:03,659 --> 00:56:05,994

She's kind of leading him on, I guess.

:

00:56:06,904 --> 00:56:09,304

Kay: 'Cause he's anticipating the

moment that he's going to have

:

00:56:09,304 --> 00:56:12,574

power over her, but that's going

to take a few minutes before he can

:

00:56:12,749 --> 00:56:14,469

Khaki: Click into her brain, yes.

:

00:56:14,469 --> 00:56:17,649

And for the time being, he has

to take her words at face value.

:

00:56:18,417 --> 00:56:19,017

And how about: I've known fear.

:

00:56:20,487 --> 00:56:21,577

It's a very healthy thing

:

00:56:21,577 --> 00:56:22,207

most of the time.

:

00:56:23,237 --> 00:56:24,447

You warn us of danger,

:

00:56:25,097 --> 00:56:26,507

remind us of our limits,

:

00:56:26,777 --> 00:56:27,987

protect us from carelessness.

:

00:56:29,097 --> 00:56:30,877

I've learned to trust fear.

:

00:56:31,425 --> 00:56:31,755

Khaki: and then he's

:

00:56:31,859 --> 00:56:33,109

And how about: Finally, someone

:

00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:34,369

who appreciates me.

:

00:56:35,399 --> 00:56:36,089

Am l blushing?

:

00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:36,600

Khaki: Yeah.

:

00:56:36,822 --> 00:56:43,634

Kay: then he's like, Oh, finally

someone who I can appreciate me.

:

00:56:43,634 --> 00:56:46,505

He still rides roller coasters

:

00:56:46,645 --> 00:56:46,865

Khaki: program?

:

00:56:46,865 --> 00:56:49,525

Why do kids still ride roller

coasters in this day and age?

:

00:56:49,625 --> 00:56:50,555

Kay: Yeah, yeah.

:

00:56:50,595 --> 00:56:51,535

After all the kind of

:

00:56:51,959 --> 00:56:52,284

Khaki: Yeah!

:

00:56:52,284 --> 00:56:52,905

And the

:

00:56:53,535 --> 00:56:56,155

Kay: and the doctor correctly points

out, it, it allows us to experience

:

00:56:56,155 --> 00:56:58,375

the boundaries of our sensory world.

:

00:56:58,375 --> 00:57:01,805

And yeah, playing with fear is exciting,

:

00:57:01,895 --> 00:57:02,185

Khaki: Yeah.

:

00:57:02,605 --> 00:57:02,825

Kay: right?

:

00:57:02,825 --> 00:57:07,812

It's the most excitement that you can

have and it's thrilling, especially when

:

00:57:07,812 --> 00:57:08,692

you know, you can come back from it.

:

00:57:08,769 --> 00:57:09,438

there's a relief.

:

00:57:10,383 --> 00:57:10,893

Khaki: Yes.

:

00:57:10,943 --> 00:57:13,133

Kim and the other two get to leave.

:

00:57:13,183 --> 00:57:15,373

Body temperature is starting to normalise.

:

00:57:15,423 --> 00:57:18,143

Coming up and they will

be out in ten minutes.

:

00:57:18,970 --> 00:57:19,183

Kay: minutes.

:

00:57:19,183 --> 00:57:21,793

And now she springs her trick.

:

00:57:21,987 --> 00:57:22,867

And how about: I've been programmed

:

00:57:22,877 --> 00:57:23,717

to respond to you

:

00:57:23,717 --> 00:57:25,027

as Kathryn Janeway would.

:

00:57:27,057 --> 00:57:27,197

But...

:

00:57:27,197 --> 00:57:27,372

but...

:

00:57:27,547 --> 00:57:29,027

l-l feel you.

:

00:57:29,027 --> 00:57:30,057

You-you're on the system.

:

00:57:30,457 --> 00:57:31,477

She is on the system,

:

00:57:31,477 --> 00:57:33,927

yes, but not in stasis.

:

00:57:34,451 --> 00:57:37,471

Khaki: So my brain's hooked up

so you can feel it and taste it.

:

00:57:37,891 --> 00:57:39,751

Taste those delicious brain meats.

:

00:57:41,001 --> 00:57:42,511

Kay: she's not dependent on the system.

:

00:57:43,151 --> 00:57:47,191

And so there's actually nothing hooked

up to the system, except for this,

:

00:57:47,207 --> 00:57:49,677

artificial construct that doesn't sustain

:

00:57:49,712 --> 00:57:49,782

Khaki: it.

:

00:57:49,852 --> 00:57:50,172

Nope.

:

00:57:50,487 --> 00:57:52,127

Kay: And you can see

the lights going down.

:

00:57:52,727 --> 00:57:57,777

And, oh, the, the cloud is so sad and

there's this twirly sort of painted

:

00:57:57,827 --> 00:58:02,457

thing in the background that's turning

around, spinning behind him as he's

:

00:58:02,507 --> 00:58:03,907

sort of realizing that his world is

:

00:58:04,542 --> 00:58:06,032

Khaki: Oh, yes, yeah,

yeah, that's what you mean.

:

00:58:07,427 --> 00:58:11,387

Kay: I read about the, uh, construction

of this set, uh, required so much painting

:

00:58:11,387 --> 00:58:14,661

that the painting crew had to work all

through the last weekend of January,

:

00:58:14,671 --> 00:58:16,351

thereby missing the Super, the Super

:

00:58:16,356 --> 00:58:16,476

Khaki: Bowl.

:

00:58:17,661 --> 00:58:20,967

Kay: aNd there was a photo taken to

commemorate like this momentous effort,

:

00:58:20,987 --> 00:58:22,987

which was like all the painters.

:

00:58:23,127 --> 00:58:25,187

I think they were lying on

the floor with like the heads

:

00:58:25,187 --> 00:58:26,297

forming a circle and holding

:

00:58:26,468 --> 00:58:26,652

Khaki: hands.

:

00:58:26,653 --> 00:58:28,142

Yeah.

:

00:58:29,252 --> 00:58:32,622

Kay: But as their trophy for really

a phenomenal job, this whole set's

:

00:58:32,855 --> 00:58:33,042

Khaki: amazing.

:

00:58:33,102 --> 00:58:33,192

Yeah.

:

00:58:33,629 --> 00:58:35,129

Jane Wick comes out with a great line that

:

00:58:35,185 --> 00:58:36,485

And how about: You know as well as l do

:

00:58:36,485 --> 00:58:37,835

that fear only exists

:

00:58:37,835 --> 00:58:38,965

for one purpose...

:

00:58:39,875 --> 00:58:40,825

To be conquered.

:

00:58:41,055 --> 00:58:43,355

Kay: and that's really insightful.

:

00:58:44,385 --> 00:58:47,385

Because, yeah, that is the

sort of mortal experience.

:

00:58:47,385 --> 00:58:48,305

You're supposed to be afraid of

:

00:58:48,305 --> 00:58:49,475

things And

:

00:58:49,475 --> 00:58:51,125

then give that fear a place.

:

00:58:51,225 --> 00:58:51,285

Khaki: Yeah.

:

00:58:52,535 --> 00:58:55,795

Kay: aNd to act in spite of it, to act

sensibly, you know, you don't have to

:

00:58:55,795 --> 00:58:58,945

do the thing that you're afraid of not

doing the things that you're afraid of

:

00:58:58,945 --> 00:59:02,495

can be very sensible, but then you're

being directed because you understand it.

:

00:59:02,795 --> 00:59:04,865

Khaki: And the clown's

like, she tricked us!

:

00:59:05,188 --> 00:59:05,615

Kay: us!

:

00:59:05,615 --> 00:59:08,805

Yes, he's very, he's very

Gollum slash Smeagol.

:

00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:09,105

Khaki: evil.

:

00:59:10,035 --> 00:59:13,565

Kay: And he's so sad and he's so

powerless and the light begins to

:

00:59:14,985 --> 00:59:18,865

Marvin Rush did a, it was a really

fantastic choice that everything just

:

00:59:18,865 --> 00:59:23,545

sort of goes a little quieter and a

little darker as the system is, you

:

00:59:23,545 --> 00:59:28,756

know, it's like how uh, 9, 000, you know,

my, my mind is going, I can feel it.

:

00:59:29,251 --> 00:59:32,691

Khaki: but also how does his comment like,

isn't that why you allowed her to, you

:

00:59:32,691 --> 00:59:37,081

know, because you know, you're supposed

to be defeated, which I don't think so.

:

00:59:37,671 --> 00:59:38,421

Cause you know,

:

00:59:38,816 --> 00:59:43,826

Kay: Oh, but that's, that's her hypothesis

that fear also needs to be overcome that.

:

00:59:44,276 --> 00:59:48,046

Consciously or unconsciously, he

actually wanted to be defeated and he

:

00:59:48,046 --> 00:59:49,996

created opportunities to be defeated.

:

00:59:50,786 --> 00:59:51,056

Khaki: Okay.

:

00:59:51,056 --> 00:59:51,686

Perhaps

:

00:59:52,376 --> 00:59:54,756

Kay: Like the very fact that he made

these threats and he didn't like

:

00:59:54,756 --> 00:59:57,636

really negotiate toward a compromise.

:

00:59:57,776 --> 00:59:59,442

Khaki: Well, he was very controlling.

:

00:59:59,442 --> 01:00:00,402

He's like, no, I want more.

:

01:00:00,642 --> 01:00:03,852

Like, I need, like I need, because,

and I kind of thought that was

:

01:00:03,852 --> 01:00:06,402

because like, you know, he, he

doesn't know when one of them dies.

:

01:00:06,402 --> 01:00:09,855

He needs to like, have as many

hostages he can in order to

:

01:00:09,915 --> 01:00:11,475

ensure his own continuation.

:

01:00:12,015 --> 01:00:12,165

Yeah.

:

01:00:12,215 --> 01:00:14,970

And he's certainly not going

to go on his own accord.

:

01:00:16,025 --> 01:00:19,255

But I did love that comment

that he makes right at the end.

:

01:00:19,692 --> 01:00:21,492

And how about: It was

very unStarfleet of her.

:

01:00:22,152 --> 01:00:23,212

Starfleet Captains

:

01:00:23,212 --> 01:00:24,432

don't easily succumb...

:

01:00:25,262 --> 01:00:25,742

to fear.

:

01:00:25,995 --> 01:00:27,165

Kay: Well that was very good.

:

01:00:27,585 --> 01:00:31,140

Khaki: But yes, all fear

eventually vanishes, and that is

:

01:00:32,390 --> 01:00:33,050

Kay: and he says,

:

01:00:33,448 --> 01:00:33,958

And how about: I'm afraid.

:

01:00:33,958 --> 01:00:33,963

I know.

:

01:00:33,963 --> 01:00:33,968

Drat.

:

01:00:33,968 --> 01:00:33,978

www.tvsubtitles.net

:

01:00:36,766 --> 01:00:39,710

Khaki: and that's a fade

:

01:00:39,730 --> 01:00:41,775

Kay: Drought is such a

great way to end this.

:

01:00:42,045 --> 01:00:43,495

This episode is amazing

:

01:00:43,577 --> 01:00:45,450

Khaki: And it's a fantastic fade out.

:

01:00:45,460 --> 01:00:47,040

It's just like it fades to black.

:

01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:47,640

That's it.

:

01:00:48,135 --> 01:00:48,435

Yeah.

:

01:00:48,465 --> 01:00:49,965

Nothing, no congratulation or,

:

01:00:50,940 --> 01:00:51,120

Kay: you're

:

01:00:51,135 --> 01:00:51,225

Khaki: right.

:

01:00:51,225 --> 01:00:52,935

Sitting around in the, in, in Voyager.

:

01:00:52,935 --> 01:00:53,655

No, this is it.

:

01:00:53,655 --> 01:00:56,175

It's like a fade out

and end of the episode.

:

01:00:56,428 --> 01:00:57,632

Kay: the episode.

:

01:00:57,632 --> 01:00:58,760

Oh, oh, okay.

:

01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,420

Well, that sort of gets me to my deleted

:

01:01:01,493 --> 01:01:01,695

Khaki: scene.

:

01:01:01,755 --> 01:01:02,415

Oh, okay.

:

01:01:02,580 --> 01:01:03,810

Kay: Which is not a funny joke.

:

01:01:04,465 --> 01:01:08,371

It's maybe they filmed like an ending

to this, or maybe they wrote an ending

:

01:01:08,371 --> 01:01:11,493

to this, you know, a comedown where

they all get to congratulate each other

:

01:01:11,493 --> 01:01:13,163

and recover and not like reflect on

:

01:01:13,163 --> 01:01:13,283

this

:

01:01:13,283 --> 01:01:13,403

and

:

01:01:13,403 --> 01:01:13,743

realize

:

01:01:13,743 --> 01:01:15,073

this is completely superfluous.

:

01:01:15,323 --> 01:01:18,743

Cut that, grab that completely

superfluous opening scene from

:

01:01:18,743 --> 01:01:20,313

another episode just to pad it.

:

01:01:20,843 --> 01:01:22,403

Like that would have been a great choice.

:

01:01:22,503 --> 01:01:22,773

Okay.

:

01:01:22,993 --> 01:01:23,903

I don't think that's the case

:

01:01:24,133 --> 01:01:24,533

Khaki: No.

:

01:01:24,603 --> 01:01:24,873

Okay.

:

01:01:24,873 --> 01:01:27,963

Well, my deleted scene is a little

bit more lighthearted because,

:

01:01:27,968 --> 01:01:30,548

Kay: Ah yes, you're, we have to explain

it because we're accessible to new

:

01:01:30,673 --> 01:01:30,923

Khaki: Right.

:

01:01:30,963 --> 01:01:31,223

Yes.

:

01:01:31,233 --> 01:01:34,923

We have a, we always have a imaginary

scene, a scene that ended up on

:

01:01:34,923 --> 01:01:38,093

the cutting room floor, which

was not included in the episode.

:

01:01:38,123 --> 01:01:42,093

Mine is that on the soundstage next

door, they were filming Spartacus,

:

01:01:42,123 --> 01:01:46,883

blood and sand, and that they got like

those extras in to have the, uh, the

:

01:01:46,883 --> 01:01:51,383

opening scene where Kim and B'Elanna

are first working, walking into the, uh,

:

01:01:51,638 --> 01:01:52,548

Kay: wow!

:

01:01:53,108 --> 01:01:54,458

Interesting time warp there.

:

01:01:54,548 --> 01:01:56,578

I think there's a, I think

there's a time difference.

:

01:01:56,578 --> 01:01:57,388

No, multiple

:

01:01:57,540 --> 01:01:57,764

Khaki: multiple

:

01:01:57,898 --> 01:02:01,348

Kay: of time difference between

Star Trek Voyager and As Our

:

01:02:01,457 --> 01:02:03,135

Khaki: Maybe 15 years or something.

:

01:02:03,135 --> 01:02:05,098

That was around:

:

01:02:06,157 --> 01:02:07,164

about 15 years,

:

01:02:07,308 --> 01:02:09,438

Kay: Or as I've heard it

called, Spartacus Blood and

:

01:02:09,733 --> 01:02:09,783

Khaki: Blood.

:

01:02:09,783 --> 01:02:10,303

Yes.

:

01:02:10,543 --> 01:02:11,933

I wasn't going to go there,

but if you're going to

:

01:02:12,047 --> 01:02:14,148

Kay: that's a

:

01:02:15,988 --> 01:02:16,578

good one.

:

01:02:16,926 --> 01:02:18,463

Khaki: But yes lovely episode.

:

01:02:18,553 --> 01:02:22,993

I agree completely with, you know,

if you, if you, if you either

:

01:02:22,993 --> 01:02:26,743

hate or love mad clowns, then

this is a very strong episode.

:

01:02:27,168 --> 01:02:27,963

Kay: Yeah, yeah.

:

01:02:27,968 --> 01:02:32,225

I, I, I really appreciate the

insights of, uh, no Way and Tonks, Um,

:

01:02:32,341 --> 01:02:36,601

where, the creation of this

as a villain because he's,

:

01:02:36,691 --> 01:02:38,221

he's existentially threatened.

:

01:02:38,616 --> 01:02:39,016

By

:

01:02:39,116 --> 01:02:39,466

Khaki: safety.

:

01:02:40,341 --> 01:02:42,575

Kay: Right, by people being safe is

an existential threat to him, and

:

01:02:42,575 --> 01:02:46,473

it's completely rational for him

to resist and as pointed out this

:

01:02:46,473 --> 01:02:49,663

episode is so surreal and strange

and it's not afraid to be that.

:

01:02:49,823 --> 01:02:53,323

I love it I've really come around on

this episode since first watching it

:

01:02:53,323 --> 01:02:54,893

and being made super uncomfortable by

:

01:02:54,903 --> 01:02:58,721

how far it diverges from the sort

of format and formula of Star Trek.

:

01:02:59,101 --> 01:03:00,891

And yeah, I kind of like

that it's such a big

:

01:03:01,233 --> 01:03:04,961

Khaki: yeah, and I have to disagree

with io9 as like the sixth least

:

01:03:04,961 --> 01:03:06,171

threatening villain of Star Trek.

:

01:03:06,201 --> 01:03:06,651

Oh no,

:

01:03:07,045 --> 01:03:07,794

Kay: Exactly.

:

01:03:08,034 --> 01:03:14,004

Because he's, he's malevolent and

terrifying in a way that the, we all

:

01:03:14,004 --> 01:03:18,084

know, none of the main crew are going

to die in regular episodes of Star Trek.

:

01:03:18,084 --> 01:03:18,334

Right.

:

01:03:18,784 --> 01:03:20,694

But we sort of overcome that.

:

01:03:20,704 --> 01:03:24,054

And we want to, like,

feel how afraid they are.

:

01:03:24,594 --> 01:03:27,644

And I genuinely feel these

people were afraid of the

:

01:03:27,666 --> 01:03:27,814

Khaki: planet.

:

01:03:29,089 --> 01:03:29,269

As

:

01:03:29,269 --> 01:03:32,679

for like production, like you, okay,

so you mentioned that the, my first

:

01:03:32,679 --> 01:03:36,319

thought, like, oh, this was like a

cheap episode because it takes place on

:

01:03:36,849 --> 01:03:42,751

two existing sets On Voyager, and they

just needed this one stage painted up

:

01:03:42,761 --> 01:03:46,321

garishly, but apparently there was so

much painting to do that it took the

:

01:03:46,341 --> 01:03:49,071

painting crew out, uh, quite, uh, a lot.

:

01:03:49,111 --> 01:03:52,041

So, I mean, like, my first impression was

like, it's, yeah, it's a simple episode.

:

01:03:52,451 --> 01:03:53,091

I mean, you have

:

01:03:53,136 --> 01:03:54,921

Kay: those props, all those costumes.

:

01:03:55,041 --> 01:03:57,771

Khaki: a lot of thing, yeah, like a

lot of people that, that probably took

:

01:03:57,771 --> 01:03:59,461

a lot of, uh, work to get doing this.

:

01:03:59,461 --> 01:04:01,741

There's a lot of people who are

just like, yeah, performing, like,

:

01:04:01,781 --> 01:04:04,211

dancing with balls, ribbons, yes.

:

01:04:05,461 --> 01:04:05,621

their,

:

01:04:05,746 --> 01:04:06,886

Kay: uh, their choreographers.

:

01:04:06,901 --> 01:04:09,231

Khaki: Yeah, on the other hand, you can

just, like, tell them, like, put them

:

01:04:09,231 --> 01:04:12,848

up in costumes, and just, like, just go

practice, like, do pretty things, and,

:

01:04:13,728 --> 01:04:17,038

Kay: Oh, I think you'd want

like someone with experience in,

:

01:04:17,051 --> 01:04:17,936

Khaki: uh, to organize

:

01:04:18,128 --> 01:04:20,848

Kay: to, to, to to organize that because

they've got a, you know, they've got

:

01:04:20,848 --> 01:04:23,868

fire safety to deal with and yes,

all those performers know all that as

:

01:04:23,997 --> 01:04:24,158

Khaki: well.

:

01:04:24,178 --> 01:04:28,038

There needs to be blocking, yeah, to

make sure that it, like, it's a visual

:

01:04:28,038 --> 01:04:29,908

appealing, uh, total that you get.

:

01:04:30,531 --> 01:04:30,668

Yep.

:

01:04:30,758 --> 01:04:35,088

And props to the, uh, Fire Breather,

who just kept going with his mask on

:

01:04:35,088 --> 01:04:36,998

fire in the background and then nobody

:

01:04:37,658 --> 01:04:38,778

Kay: Might not be the first time.

:

01:04:39,328 --> 01:04:40,698

Khaki: No, odds are, yes.

:

01:04:41,468 --> 01:04:43,484

Kay: And presumably like

someone does those kind of

:

01:04:43,484 --> 01:04:45,224

performances knows what's safe.

:

01:04:46,354 --> 01:04:50,054

and what to do, and, oh, oh, oh,

K, K, K, do you remember how,

:

01:04:50,184 --> 01:04:52,584

like, we've been looking for a

new ending segment, I was suddenly

:

01:04:52,584 --> 01:04:56,394

thinking of, remember that new sound

you were looking for, I've had an idea,

:

01:04:56,413 --> 01:04:57,244

Khaki: Okay, bring it.

:

01:04:57,649 --> 01:05:00,538

Kay: I'm going to give you

a little taste of an episode

:

01:05:00,538 --> 01:05:01,544

that I've picked for next week.

:

01:05:01,684 --> 01:05:02,114

Khaki: Okay.

:

01:05:02,599 --> 01:05:04,759

Kay: I'm going to give you some

clues and see if you can get it.

:

01:05:04,779 --> 01:05:05,509

And it'll be a little,

:

01:05:05,852 --> 01:05:05,974

Khaki: little

:

01:05:05,974 --> 01:05:06,094

game.

:

01:05:06,094 --> 01:05:07,424

A little game, okay, bring it on.

:

01:05:07,429 --> 01:05:07,659

Kay: home.

:

01:05:07,869 --> 01:05:11,586

And here's the thing, because at the

end of the, uh, out credits, chief

:

01:05:11,586 --> 01:05:13,356

engineer, Greg always tells people.

:

01:05:13,616 --> 01:05:16,733

You know what the next episode

is, but if you don't get

:

01:05:16,733 --> 01:05:17,803

to, then you're not going to

:

01:05:18,071 --> 01:05:18,538

Khaki: find out.

:

01:05:18,733 --> 01:05:19,113

Kay: All right.

:

01:05:19,123 --> 01:05:21,693

So there's a, there's a little

element of risk and then next week

:

01:05:21,693 --> 01:05:22,793

you can pick the one after that.

:

01:05:22,793 --> 01:05:23,423

And you can give me some

:

01:05:23,453 --> 01:05:24,028

Khaki: clues Okay.

:

01:05:24,038 --> 01:05:24,328

So you can get that.

:

01:05:24,418 --> 01:05:25,688

Yeah, yeah, that sounds great.

:

01:05:25,803 --> 01:05:26,213

Kay: All right.

:

01:05:26,713 --> 01:05:30,779

So here's a selection of lines from

the episode that we're doing next

:

01:05:30,844 --> 01:05:31,204

Khaki: Yeah.

:

01:05:31,519 --> 01:05:33,679

Kay: The first one is by data.

:

01:05:33,788 --> 01:05:34,699

So it's the next generation

:

01:05:35,737 --> 01:05:38,167

Greg: Sir, the purpose of

this gathering confuses me.

:

01:05:40,956 --> 01:05:41,246

Khaki: Okay.

:

01:05:42,261 --> 01:05:43,101

Fairly generic.

:

01:05:43,236 --> 01:05:43,426

Kay: Yeah.

:

01:05:43,646 --> 01:05:43,876

Okay.

:

01:05:43,916 --> 01:05:44,416

Next one.

:

01:05:44,426 --> 01:05:44,446

Yeah.

:

01:05:45,126 --> 01:05:45,966

Riker says

:

01:05:46,569 --> 01:05:47,109

Greg: Data.

:

01:05:47,199 --> 01:05:48,429

Something's got me.

:

01:05:48,429 --> 01:05:48,788

Me.

:

01:05:49,859 --> 01:05:50,369

Khaki: Oh.

:

01:05:50,819 --> 01:05:52,319

Oh, okay.

:

01:05:52,319 --> 01:05:52,649

Yeah.

:

01:05:52,649 --> 01:05:53,369

Still not there.

:

01:05:53,454 --> 01:05:53,834

Kay: No.

:

01:05:53,894 --> 01:05:54,304

Okay.

:

01:05:54,734 --> 01:05:55,814

Next one is from data.

:

01:05:56,449 --> 01:05:57,919

Greg: I think you should be destroyed.

:

01:05:58,395 --> 01:05:58,695

Khaki: Oh,

:

01:06:00,390 --> 01:06:01,110

Kay: It's a good line.

:

01:06:01,125 --> 01:06:01,185

Khaki: Yeah.

:

01:06:02,460 --> 01:06:05,920

Oh, that sounds like it could say

something to a villain or something.

:

01:06:05,957 --> 01:06:06,260

Kay: me.

:

01:06:06,625 --> 01:06:09,160

Khaki: it's got me Uh, okay.

:

01:06:09,630 --> 01:06:11,370

Kay: We've got, uh, we've got three more.

:

01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:12,430

Worf says,

:

01:06:12,685 --> 01:06:13,855

Greg: I will do my best, sir.

:

01:06:14,090 --> 01:06:15,053

Khaki: sir.

:

01:06:15,053 --> 01:06:16,133

That could be any episode.

:

01:06:18,513 --> 01:06:19,393

Kay: Okay, fine.

:

01:06:19,433 --> 01:06:21,173

Liar, uh, Diana says,

:

01:06:21,381 --> 01:06:22,371

Greg: Liar.

:

01:06:22,743 --> 01:06:23,373

Khaki: Oh.

:

01:06:23,423 --> 01:06:24,043

Oh.

:

01:06:24,153 --> 01:06:25,303

Is it a Q episode?

:

01:06:25,953 --> 01:06:27,123

Kay: Ooh, good

:

01:06:27,203 --> 01:06:27,303

Khaki: guess.

:

01:06:27,573 --> 01:06:29,953

Kay: but I'm, no, I can see why.

:

01:06:31,313 --> 01:06:32,843

Okay, here's the last one.

:

01:06:32,873 --> 01:06:33,343

Which

:

01:06:33,643 --> 01:06:35,643

is probably, like, your best shot.

:

01:06:36,401 --> 01:06:40,151

Greg: I would guess the death is no longer

sufficient to alleviate its boredom.

:

01:06:40,901 --> 01:06:42,761

Khaki: oh, it's, yeah.

:

01:06:42,761 --> 01:06:45,281

It sounds like another

powerful alien episode.

:

01:06:45,351 --> 01:06:46,371

Kay: Yes, yes?

:

01:06:46,661 --> 01:06:47,591

Khaki: is it the.

:

01:06:48,991 --> 01:06:51,121

Oh, is it the episode

where Tasha Yar dies?

:

01:06:51,121 --> 01:06:51,801

Yes!

:

01:06:51,801 --> 01:06:53,161

Yes, dude!

:

01:06:53,161 --> 01:06:54,521

Nailed it!

:

01:06:54,521 --> 01:06:54,931

Skin

:

01:06:55,051 --> 01:06:55,511

Kay: evil!

:

01:06:55,851 --> 01:06:57,666

Oh, well done, Kay!

:

01:06:58,081 --> 01:06:58,751

Khaki: Oh, thank you.

:

01:06:58,801 --> 01:06:59,121

Yeah.

:

01:06:59,296 --> 01:07:01,466

Kay: Yeah, recommended by our

friend Mark Nixon from the

:

01:07:01,466 --> 01:07:02,666

Shadows at the Door podcast.

:

01:07:02,866 --> 01:07:04,666

We'll hear his recommendation

next time around.

:

01:07:04,856 --> 01:07:06,236

Yes, it absolutely was.

:

01:07:06,526 --> 01:07:09,666

And here, just as an extra

treat, because this is the secret

:

01:07:09,976 --> 01:07:13,973

second component of this segment,

let's hear those lines in order.

:

01:07:14,653 --> 01:07:16,753

Sir, the purpose of this

gathering confuses me.

:

01:07:17,083 --> 01:07:18,343

Data, something's got me!

:

01:07:18,603 --> 01:07:19,943

I think you should be destroyed.

:

01:07:20,083 --> 01:07:21,353

I will do my best, sir.

:

01:07:21,493 --> 01:07:22,183

Liar!

:

01:07:22,463 --> 01:07:25,123

I would guess that death is no longer

sufficient to alleviate its boredom.

:

01:07:28,608 --> 01:07:29,238

Khaki: Fantastic.

:

01:07:29,803 --> 01:07:31,963

Kay: And with that,

let's make like Beverly,

:

01:07:32,353 --> 01:07:33,163

And leave

:

01:07:33,718 --> 01:07:34,168

Khaki: I'm leaving,

:

01:07:34,353 --> 01:07:36,173

Kay: Starfleet, that's

what, we'll work on it.

:

01:07:36,173 --> 01:07:36,583

I'm,

:

01:07:36,650 --> 01:07:37,958

Khaki: leaving Starfleet.

:

01:07:38,598 --> 01:07:39,248

Engage.

:

01:07:39,343 --> 01:07:40,923

Kay: Oh, we're gonna

have to figure do that.

:

01:07:40,933 --> 01:07:42,768

Maybe we should have Oh

:

01:07:43,479 --> 01:07:46,209

Greg: We hope you've enjoyed this

week's episode with friends K and

:

01:07:46,209 --> 01:07:50,229

cocky production editing by chief

engineer, Greg and music by Fox.

:

01:07:50,229 --> 01:07:50,859

A more.

:

01:07:51,609 --> 01:07:56,469

Like hockey said, join us next

time for next generation, season

:

01:07:56,469 --> 01:07:58,929

one, episode 23, skin of evil.

:

01:08:00,339 --> 01:08:01,329

Visit us at drift track.

:

01:08:01,479 --> 01:08:05,139

Dot com slash links to send your

Sarah commendations support us on

:

01:08:05,169 --> 01:08:06,939

page John, or to find us on Twitter.

:

01:08:06,939 --> 01:08:08,409

We'd love to hear from you.

:

01:08:09,009 --> 01:08:12,429

Thank you for listening to the drive

Trek and we'll see you out there.

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About the Podcast

The Joy of Trek
Every Star Trek story is somebody's favorite, and that might as well be us!
Two lifelong besties (and their trusty engineer) adventure through the vast constellations of Star Trek's decades on TV, especially the lesser-loved stories.

But instead of bitching about why they’re bad, we’re going to find the joy in each of them, because everybody loves the great episodes, but it takes dedication, insight, and hard-working fools to love the clunkers too.

And by Jove, we are those fools!

Positive, inclusive and optimistic (though not uncritical!) we try to find the brilliance even in the least-loved episodes of our favorite TV shows!